The Most Underrated Players You Have Watched ??

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by leadleader, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    he was on ronaldo,romario level, above dinho, etc
     
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  2. C.C.

    C.C. New Member

    Code Geass FC
    Portugal
    Apr 14, 2017
    Others players:

    Marcos Senna
    -very good at euro 2008

    Diego Millito
    - Showed more ballon d'or winner material than any player from Inter squad in 2009/10. Second top scorer and Serie A MVP and UCL MVP and not mencionated in Ballon d'Or 2010. People have completely forgotten his individual performances.
     
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  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #28 carlito86, Sep 28, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
    I think you under sell rivaldo here if only slightly (talking about 1998/99 here only-no other season by him warrants a mention as being elite/legendary)
    I really don’t think we need a source to state rivaldo was clearly and undisputedly Barcelona’s best player in 98/99
    Even if your saying he wasn’t voted La Liga player we know these awards can sometimes be unreliable like f**king Luís Enrique being voted Barcelona best player in 96/97

    Rivaldo was also a great provider of assists in 98/99(I believe he had between 12-16 assists in all comps)and nearly 40 goals playing in something akin to a withdrawn forward role
    His raw production (in his peak season)is in a complete different stratosphere compared to his successor Ronaldinho (even with all his penalties)

    Rivaldo was extremely effective (and creative with superior goal/assist and dribbling stats than Zidane in the World Cup for example)
    His running style is awkward and he isn’t the most eye catching technical player (even though on his day he was capable of the outrageous)
    As as side point part of r9s great legacy was built on those 15 goals he scored in the World Cup.
    Rivaldo was involved in 7 of those and weren’t not talking about basic assists (like pele in the World Cup)but world class playmaker assists
     
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  4. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Rivaldo was a great player.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #30 PuckVanHeel, Sep 28, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
    I'm not aware of Luis Enrique being voted that way but he had a very productive season, one of his best perhaps, and was an industrial player.

    Difference is though Luis Enrique didn't finish 6th in the Ballon d'Or (unlike Figo in 1999).


    I think the problem is Rivaldo was hardly more productive as his more team orientated team mates.

    He had in the league 24 goals (bumped up by 6 penalties) and 10 assists (12 at best) while taking set pieces - his only FCB season over 10 assists by the way.

    That isn't better than his team focused team mates. Same for the Champions League.

    So he was a very good player but this relates to the discussion above.


    If that last thing is true: rightly so. Gazzetta didn't rate his CL games very high.
     
  6. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #32 PuckVanHeel, Sep 29, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
    I see zero tangible points in that article. Brazilian players will rarely become underrated, that is almost an iron law.

    Yes he was possibly Barcelona's best player and the fame was naturally gravitating towards him (for similar reasons as why Diego Milito got elevated in 2010, except that this time Sneijder was so good, and influential when it mattered the most, that the plot by the powers-that-be didn't fully work out).

    The problem remains however that in all the league seasons between 1997 and 2002 his team-mates were actually more productive than him (excluding penalties). In 1997-98 Luis Enrique was more productive than him, in 1998-99 (only Rivaldo season with 10 league assists or more) Kluivert narrowly edged him, in 1999-00 both Kluivert and Figo, in 2000-01 Kluivert, in 2001-02 both Saviola and Kluivert. That are just the facts and with his playing style and the role he carved out for himself he should have been above that.

    Van Gaal (and successors) is sometimes portrayed as an idiot, but there was actually real merit in what he expected from Rivaldo. For me it is not really surprising that his GoalImpact rating is quite a bit lower than team-mate Figo for example. Video game simulations rate his teamwork, defense and such as very low for a player of his position.

    I think this post from a few years back is a good summary: "Rivaldo was a really enigmatic player. In South America they called him Patapalo ("Wooden leg"), but he was actually considered the best of the world for a while. Then he arrived to Milan and just wanished. He was spectacular at his best, but if you compare him to the best current players, you really understand how much the game has progressed. Rivaldo was in some way the Zlatan of his times. He had incredible numbers, but also an inclination to consider football an individual sport. His vision of the game was basically: "Football = the ball + my foot + the goal"."


    If you look at his Champions League exploits then yes, he was for a while their all-time topscorer (more than Ronaldinho, more than Eto'o) though not when one excludes the penalties. Also here there is a vulnerability in that he has only five goals in the 2nd group stage and beyond (three against Porto, two against Chelsea, with one penalty against the latter, won by Figo) - and no, he did not compensate that with assists. With this he ranks below a few team-mates while - again - I think that with his role, style and luxuries he should have been above that. On the other hand, he has some great games in the 1st group stage as well (Milan, Manchester United).

    One can also see that his Champions League production really took off after the first two seasons (between 1997-1999 only 3 goals and 1 assist). After that Figo hit his very peak, Guardiola returned as a fixture, Frank de Boer came and played everything, his favorite combination partner Kluivert became available (not available in 1998-99 for the CL and I'd say that showed). That changed a lot.

    I know I don't make myself popular with this, with opinions already set in stone.


    The makeshift defense was at fault here, more so than Rivaldo his genius. The defense totally messes it up.

    Anyway, his great Brazil career (also in 1999) merits a separate dissection but I've ran out of steam for now. I know the above text is pointless and not appreciated by some.
     
  8. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You make some valid points about Rivaldo, but that doesn't make his pass vs Holland great and Ronaldo's skill any less. It's sad that you take every chance to shit on anything Brazilian. You'd probably downplay Rivaldo's hat trick vs Valencia somehow including that amazing bicycle kick.
     
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  9. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I always found Nedved never got much recognition even though he did win the Balon d'Or in 2003.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks for proving the above point. As usual it is a mixture of projection and unsubstantiated accusations by celito. Try again.
     
  11. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You know I am right.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Brazil is an excellent football nation, but Brazil and 'being right' are two things that don't go together well. You have never been an exception.

    https://www.bustle.com/articles/124...ld-this-study-found-out-because-apparently-we

    You said yourself that Rivaldo was often frustrating to watch, and often slowed down play. Meanwhile, I called his national team career 'great' (greater than Zico for my money).

    It was a pass from a complete standstill situation and the makeshift patchwork defense does mess it up clearly. Ronaldo uses his speed and does the most difficult parts (plural) of the job.

    No, it was a phenomenal hat-trick, almost all entirely created by himself. At the same time it has to be said Valencia was in a poor form and they missed some key players (not the least Mendieta).

    As good as the hat-trick was, that one game does not make him automatically underrated. Actually, if anything that hat-trick upgraded the perception of his form at the time, and erased the memory of his European form at the business end.

    Here:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-worst-ballon-dor-winner.2012564/page-3#post-31308521
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-worst-ballon-dor-winner.2012564/page-4#post-31312437


    The only thing you do is projection plus insult/accusation. I'm stupid to waste time on a reply.
     
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  13. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    All time, I'd throw out some names like Rivaldo, Batistuta, Mihajlovic, and Pirlo.

    Right now in the game, I feel like Mandzukic is really underrated when you look at how many big goals he scored. From midfield, I'd say Busquets who isn't really appreciated but when he's on his A game, Barca rarely loses.
     
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  14. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yes I did say that. That's why I said you made valid points.


    Even good defenses have lapses and mistakes, great players recognize it and take advantage of it. So that doesn't take away from the fact that it was a good pass. But yes Ronaldo did the hardest. And BTW, that's 3 nearly identical assists he has to Ronaldo in 3 WCs ... vs Morocco, Holland, and Turkey.


    And there you go ... you just had to take some sort of jab on that hat trick ... :ROFLMAO:

    My accusation is because you always seem put fault in anything Brazilian. Your analysis seems to always be one sided.
     
  15. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    as clear as daylight
     
  16. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Didnt try to compare them but he literally reminded me of Santi.

    Hakim Ziyech is hands down the best player in Eredivisie now, from what ive seen and should make a break through very soon. He is beautiful to watch but nobody talks about him.. underrated
     
  17. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Len Shackleton
    Peter Thompson
    Bernd Dörfel
     
  18. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #43 leadleader, Oct 5, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
    Edgar Davids. Rarely mentioned in the same breath as the Redondos, the Vieiras, or the Makeleles, but in all probability just as good as any of them or, at the very least, a lot better than his perceived inferiority implies.

    The 2002/03 Champions League Semi Finals - Real Madrid v Juventus - is an interesting anecdote: Zidane was arguably slightly better than a plainly average Nedved in the first leg (Makelele played, but Davids did not), and Nedved was unequivocally significantly better than Zidane in the second leg (Makelele did not played, but Davids played). Davids received his due credit in the game, but as time goes on, most fans remember more and more what Nedved did, and less and less what Davids did, but what Davids did was nothing short of one of the greatest defensive midfield performances of all time in the Champions League; he completely nullified Luis Figo (I honestly can't remember Figo being dispossessed in one single game, quite as many times as Davids dispossessed him in that game), he produced a roulette against the roulette master himself, and then he also did everything else that could be done by a defensive midfielder.

    Another anecdote of David's importance to that 2002/03 Juventus side, is Nedved's disappearance act in the away game vs. Newcastle, which Newcastle won 1-0, and an occasion where Nedved disappeared into the night as the game went on, especially after Davids was subbed out of the game in minute 46 of the game. In a nutshell: Edgar Davids was such a big part of the big games where Nedved made his mark, and not enough people appreciate that fact.
     
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  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #44 carlito86, Oct 6, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
    dragan dzajic
    According to some football experts the greatest winger in the history of the game
    With possibly the greatest combination of dribbling and passing any player has ever had
    In fact he was regarded during his peak 67/68 as being even bettejr than George Best(an opinion voiced by Franz Beckenbauer) but losing in the 68 euro final and playing in a obscure league probably cost him
    Pele also spoke of him very highly “Džajić is the Balkan miracle – a real wizard. I'm just sorry he's not Brazilian because I've never seen such a natural footballer."

    And Dragan stojkovic was the most technically gifted attacking midfielder of the late 80s and early 90s.
    None of the famed European stars of the day were comparable in talent (not Romario,gullit,Van Basten only maradona was and a young baggio

    He was schooling great defensive players rijkaard,gullit,Lothar Matthäus,Andreas brehme.what a player

    I think only Brazil has produced more technical players than Slavic countries (Yugoslavia)
    Stojkovic,savecivic,dzajic,Sušić are players who would all make top 50 lists if they were South American or Western European.

    Note:
    I didn’t watch dzajic live (I am way to young)but don’t think the op stipulated that this was a condition for listing a player
     
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  20. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Hard to see any Slavic country, or even combined, having produced more than Argentina.

    I think Spain in the past 20 years have also really upped their all-time technical players number.

    What about the Netherlands? From the 70s onwards, pretty much every decade had a Dutch player as one of the better technical players in the world. Even their more defensive players are better technicians than their counterparts, such as Krol, Rijkaard, Koeman, and De Boer (and to a lesser extent, Stam, when compared to his contemporaries). I don't know about the next generation post-Robben though. Heard some good things about the new batch from Ajax, but I've only seen them like 3 times.

    You do have to admit that the Slavic countries top players all seem to have top-level mentality though.
     
  21. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    @carlito86

    Don't forget Sinisa Mihajlovic the free kick GOAT hehe...
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I just named you 5 players that could match any Argentinians (barring possibly maradona)as technicians
    Dejan Savecivic is a top 5 dribbler of the last 30 years with Messi,baggio,el fenomeno and maradona
    Stojkovic is the most talented attacking midfielder perhaps since maradona himself.he had the talent to emulate Michel Platini in Europe but injuries and preferring to stay in Japan stopped him from reaching that level.
    He is a better ball player than hagi,laudrup,zidane all of whom has demonstrably better careers but were simply not as gifted as he was

    Yes from Western European countries the Netherlands have perhaps consistently produced the most technical players.they usually have a few world class ones per generation
    I would put France next and then Spain after.german players are usually plain and mechanical (a player like rumminge or even littbarski was extremely rare for them )And Italy..well let’s just say we’re having a gap generation (there is nobody at all)

    I still think Eastern European nations have traditionally produced more technical specialists.they are just relatively unknown mainly because of politics they never got world wide exposure during their primes in euro 92 for example (stojkovic was imo one of the very best players in italia 90 his performance vs Spain being one of the best in that World Cup)
     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yeah to this day the only player to score a hat trick of freekicks
    I’m not convinced he is The freekick goat.there were a few before him (zico and platini) and a few after him(Juninho,Beckham) who are more deserving of that title

    As a FK specialist i would put him at the same rank as Hagi,and slightly above maradona,baggio,del piero,Ronaldinho,Cristiano and Messi(all of whom I think required more chances to score)
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Ironically, Stojkovic arguably did not score (and assist) often enough compared to other gifted forwards/attacking midfielders of that era - it is his major weak point. Not sure either whether he or Savicevic were known for their mentality (in matches, training etc.). I'd say Romario or Van Basten (whose technical level and posture could vary thanks to injuries) at their best state were technically just as good as Stojkovic.
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Romario and mvb had great technique for their position (they are more technical than Henry,Suarez,batistuta,Shevchenko)but it is known irregardless of his g+a record stojkovic didn’t always operate at 100% but when he did he was able to destroy saachis Milan ( they were saved by fog in the second leg encounter vs red star Belgrade at the Marakana stadium)
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/24573761

    In the first match stojkovic destroyed Milan dribbling past rijkaard,Van Basten,anchelotti.he also dribbled past Maldini /baresi to score his goal


    In the second leg savecivic combined perfectly with a stojkovic and put Milan to the sword but were saved by the ref(I believe he put even prime Ruud Gullit on his ass with a feint in this match)


    Even in the replay match red star had a goal wrongly discredited by the ref.
    Milan were lucky to go through

    I don’t believe no European stars in the late 80s up to the early 90s with the exception of baggio had the ability of these two players.particularly with stojkovic there is a sense he didn’t fulfill his talent but he did enough to show he was a phenomenon.
     

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