The MLS Stadium Thread

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by fairfax4dc, May 20, 2016.

  1. Bluecat82

    Bluecat82 Member+

    Feb 24, 1999
    Minneapolis, MN
    Club:
    Minnesota United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would not LAFC also be a "have"?
     
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  2. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most definitely. I just forgot them. They be noobs. I am old.
     
  3. Bluecat82

    Bluecat82 Member+

    Feb 24, 1999
    Minneapolis, MN
    Club:
    Minnesota United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1953 Bluecat82, Jan 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
    So here's a question, then...

    Is there anyone else that could make that leap into HaveLand?

    It's certainly not dictated solely by market size, because...Portland.

    Could Minnesota now that Allianz Field is paid for? Could the Crew under new ownership with new digs?

    Miami, certainly, if they ever manage to field a team. They won't survive if they aren't a have.

    Thoughts?
     
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  4. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And given where NYRB usually finds itself in the payroll standings (pretty low), why are we considering it a "have"?
     
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  5. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because they’re consistently one of the best teams in the league, even if they do it differently (like FC Dallas)... if you don’t count a winning team from one of the two largest cities as a “have” the whole narrative starts to break down. Just pretend like nothing has changed since the days of Henry/Cahill/Marquez okay!
     
  6. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Didn't they pay a decent transfer fee for Kaku last year? Like $6M-$7M?? Not to mention they invest a lot of cash into their academy and scouting every year. Plus they have some of best facilities in not just MLS, but in the world.
     
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  7. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If we are to believe Dr. Pete Edwards, steward of the Columbus Crew, the new ownership is going to spend more than the previous underfunded and indifferent ownership groups did.

    If that would bring Columbus into the "haves" I have no idea.
     
  8. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Since we don't have any early-Abramovich-style owners spending money the team doesn't generate, nor does it look like anyone at the top of the revenue table is just putting all that money in mason jars (at least not a ton more than their peers) I would probably roughly rank the 'haves' and 'have nots' by their revenue. The best estimate we have of that seems to be from the annual Forbes estimates:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2018/11/14/mls-most-valuable-teams-2018/#39370e362ee9

    If I'm reading them right, the Red Bulls rank 9th, not really a 'have.'

    I think there probably is a positive and non-trivial correlation between the Shield contenders and the moneyed teams, but at the same time, I think that will be a general tendency and not some kind of iron law. But in a given year, I would think that the top 5 or 6 records are probably going to include 3 or 4 'haves.'
     
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  9. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This'll blow your mind:





    I guess that we can slide FCD into the "haves," which amuses me.
     
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  10. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    This is an important part of the equation too. Given what RBNY have taken in, I’d love to have seen them invest a bit more in bringing talent in. Then again you can’t really complain about their results on the field and I like that they are willing to play young academy products...
     
  11. POdinCowtown

    POdinCowtown Member+

    Jan 15, 2002
    Columbus
    Haslam could double the Crew's player payroll at less than the cost of individual Browns players. But the spending needs to make sense with a chance to recover some of the outlay. The new sponsorships were promised to get the team above the league average in revenue. League average last year was 36 mil. Crew were at 24 mil per Forbes. So adding 12 mil+ to revenue should support an increase in payroll. I'd think spending 50% of revenue on the players is a sustainable level and that would certainly allow for a large increase in spending.
     
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  12. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure, I think some teams can become Haves. And it isn't just one thing. Attendance/revenue, ownership's ability & willingness to spend, and the market itself all contribute.

    The two NY teams, two LA teams, and Miami are going to be places where players want to play. Barring a Chivas/Fusion type ownership debacle, they are Haves with decent (NYRB), very good (NYFC, LAFC), or excellent (LAG) support in terms of spending/attendance.

    Outside of the A list destinations, you need something else driving things. Either attendance #s, willingness to spend, or both. And they are often connected.

    ATL & SEA are in their own league (50k/40k), with TFC & LAG consistently 25k+. And all are willing spenders plus LA is LA.

    As mentioned before, both NY clubs & LAFC are also Haves. Premium destinations with good/decent (NYRB) attendance & willingness to spend. NY has the big foreign $$.

    Who else?

    Well, Portland at 25k per match is going to have the cash, but will they spend?

    Cincy is going to have 30k for two years, and is building a 25k stadium. I heard rumors of Nashville at 30k. But will those numbers hold or will they go the way of Orlando?

    For me:

    Haves = ATL, SEA, TFC, LAG + NYRB, NYCFC, LAFC, Miami.

    Perhaps = Portland, Cincy, Nashville.

    SKC is consistent but tapped out at just short of 20k, ditto SJ at lower #s. I put Minny here too. RSL & Vancouver also. Caps do have potential but I do not hear much on moving out of BC Place.

    DC has a shot to rise up if it can become a sexy destination again world wide. At worst they are in the upper middle class zone with SKC, SJ, RSL, Van, and Minny.

    Columbus? We will have to see. 20k stadium? 22k? 25k? How fast/well can Haslam/Edwards build/rebuild that base. Crew have never had engaged local owners before. Big spend for Porter, but who knows going forward? Wait & see.

    Orlando started out like a Have but are back down to earth post Kaka. Atrendance down. And they are always going to be Miami's little brother. Still 20k plus, however.

    The rest? I just do not see a quick path up the ladder, despite big markets (Chi, Boston, Houston, Dallas, Philly) and deep pocketed owners (NE, Col, FCD). Though it is not as if they are doing terribly (Hou, Phil, NE, FCD on pitch) even with mild neglect. But it could be so much better.

    Ownership changes (in terms of ambition or new ownership) or a change in the stadium situations (which is probably 10+ years away) seem needed.
     
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  13. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sacramento is ready to build their stadium, and just added a new lead investor in Ron Burkle...
     
  14. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    MLS's popularity is not nearly as ubiquitous as the bigger sports*, so the relative popularity of the league in the area will make a big difference.

    (* And even there, MLB's St Louis Cardinals often act somewhat like a big-market club even though St Louis isn't a very big market, because the Cards have a much bigger market share than many of the bigger market MLB clubs do.)

    And yes, the ability of your stadium to monetize is a big factor too. Mapfre is a perfectly good place to watch soccer, but it doesn't monetize well.

    Miami I could see being a 'have' team without being a raw attendance leader, if they can monetize the arena on the high end well enough. There's a whole lot of high-end money sloshing around, if they can get a piece of it.
     
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  15. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with a lot of your post. but take some issue with NYRB being a have. I appreciate their willingness to invest in their academy and USL team and I like they are willing to play young Americans that come through their academy. However, these guys have a positive $18 mln plus transfer balance since 2015... far more than any other team and other than Kaku, who have they brought in? They had the 4th lowest payroll in the league last year at just a hair over $8mln. With all that transfer cash and that foreign money you would think they could at least spend like SKC on their roster.
     
  16. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Regarding Kraft and the Revs, that is a frequent topic on the Revs board. The Pats always have (and rightfully so) been the top dog, but we'd like to see a little more than total incompetence and neglect on the Revs side. At some point in the next couple of years Brady and Bellichick will retire and the Pats will revert to mediocre at best. They had a great run, but it won't last forever. Bob Kraft is in his late 70s (or more) so he may turn the whole operation over to his imbecile son, Uday.

    I wouldn't expect much to change with junior in charge, just because his kids grew up with the Revs. They will never be relevant to the Kraft empire, even if the Pats sink to the depths of the Billy Sullivan era. We are basically doomed.
     
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  17. RafaLarios

    RafaLarios Member+

    Oct 2, 2009
    Medellín
    Club:
    Atletico Nacional
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Kraft is seen as a great owner for the Patriots, but the only salvation that the Patriots have is that they have Brady and Belichick, otherwise Kraft is as cheap as any ( for NFL standards ), they don't pay ANYONE on their roster (maybe gilmore. Edelman gets like 2 million a year, that is an absolute tragedy).

    Once Brady and Belichick retires the owners will still be cheap , but now without their saviours... they will become the laughinstock of the NFL again...

    I am a patriots fan by the way .
     
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  18. fairfax4dc

    fairfax4dc Member+

    Dec 5, 2008
    Fairfax, Va
    Can anyone explain to this non-business savvy person how these club valuations were calculated? The Atlanta valuation seems odd - the simpliest (and far from complete) interpretation of their success is that the owner spent so much on the club to assure winning that they managed to lose $2 million despite amazing attendance. The admittedly simplistic analysis is that without such huge spending the club wouldn't win, and without winning the club wouldn't draw. So why would someone pay $330 million for a club that hasn't proven it can be profitable?
     
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  19. POdinCowtown

    POdinCowtown Member+

    Jan 15, 2002
    Columbus
    The Forbes numbers are guesstimates of what the team might sell for. Two teams with similar financials might have different valuations based on market desirability or other factors. Note that a couple of teams have sold fractional shares recently which would imply a full valuation above $400 mil. Those teams (DCU and Orlando) own new stadiums which is a big driver in the franchise valuations.
     
  20. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    The Redbirds also have a much bigger market than might be assumed from the St. Louis metro area (maybe that's what you meant). Not only is the team followed with religious fervor in the city proper, but historically the team captured large swathes of the country in its territory based on being for a long time essentially the western-most and southern-most big-league club, and their flagship radio signal reached the entire far-flung region -- a very big deal in the days before TV, let alone cable. Combined with their tradition of titles (second only to the Yankees), the Cardinals have been able to draw very well across generations, with annual pilgrimages of fans from the hinterlands whose grandfathers or great-grandfathers were fans before them.
     
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  21. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    I suspect in Atlanta's case it's based on a suspicion that revenues will grow over time, and that some of the costs are start-up costs that won't recur. The 2018 estimate is based on 2017 figures (which is why LAFC is an n/a), and that was AUFC's first season of existence.

    Worth noting also that as far as player expenses go, AUFC's salaries weren't that high. A lot of their expenses were one-shot transfer fees paid out mostly upfront.
     
  22. wingman2468

    wingman2468 Member

    Austin FC
    United States
    May 25, 2018
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  23. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dr. Edwards was on local news last night talking about what will be done with MAPFRE to make it usable for the next two years while the new stadium is being built. He also hinted at a spring groundbreaking was needed to only spend two more years in MAPFRE and that didn’t happen so probably a mid season opening for the new digs.

    Also interesting is the amount of work needed to be done to MAPFRE that wasn’t done in terms of upkeep. He said “we are changing a lot of lightbulbs” with a smirk on his face.
     
  24. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that is fair.

    Perhaps it is just Henry hangover skewing my viewpoint.

    But I still think NY is a premium destination for players. Wright-Phillips has been awfully successful. Kaku.

    It remains to be seen if NYRB will asjust their strategy or keave the powder mostly dry on transfers.

    Again, I would not put NYRB in tier 1 (ATL, SEA, TFC, LAG), but certainly above the likes of Columbus, Philly, RSL, Colorado, etc.

    I do have a concern about both NY teams essentially being run as secondary soccer investments for their Euro based ownership. Which may explain (unfortunately) RB keeping their powder dry on transfers & investment in the Academy. It is a feeder team, not an trophy seeker.

    That is not how NY teams should operate.
     
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  25. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting news. Linky?

    How deep are Burkle's pockets?
     

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