The "Messi: the best player in the world. Is it even up for discussion?" thread

Discussion in 'Barcelona' started by jfcule, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    it is true that 2013 start to decline. he was a mediocre free kick taker even before that, just become worse and worse,possibly become the worst
    juven has dybala as well (who scored a winning goal last night after came on sub ronaldo)
     
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  2. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Damn, so Messi converstion rate has been 1/5 the past two years. That's impressive.
     
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  3. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    not even to mention that those are not goals, are just slightly over the bar or hit the bar,stopped by goalkeeper. not many hit the wall.
    accuracy at its best.
     
  4. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    He had/has tendionisis which is degenerative condition of the tendon. Which is more serious than tendinitis which is just inflammation. It can be for many reasons ... not only one. Most likely it's do to general overuse and not resting enough. With his playing style in his younger years, he put a lot of stress on his body.

    Plus, his tendionisis is on his left knee, not his right (striking leg). His FK conversion probably went down because of the condition, but it doesn't mean it's what caused it. Probably a combination of factors. Impossible to know.

    I know an English coach speculated in 2009 that'd he'd have knee problems because of that FK technique. But he was probably just guessing.
     
  5. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Most FK goals Europe's Top 5 Leagues - Last 10 seasons

    Messi - 33
    Juve - 31
    Madrid - 30
    Man City - 29
     
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  6. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    Classic Pele
    IMG_20191114_233633.jpg
     
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  7. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    messi another man of the match perfromance against brazil
     
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  8. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    I thought he was suspended? :confused:
     
  9. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Suspension ended after the October calendar.
     
  10. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Also at 7 goals creeping on Pele (8) as the highest scorer in ARG-BRA.
     
  11. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    He wasn't that impressive. It was a bad game overall.
     
  12. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Empty record . Still counting those youth goals I presume . That’s beneath his accomplishments . Messi has gone 0 for 6 in competitive matches . Not that it’s his fault because his team sucks .
     
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  13. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Why wouldn't we count those? Well yeah, I think Argentina has scored whole one goal during competitive senior matches vs. Brazil. And almost all of Messi's goals have been individual goals, like yesterday.

    All-time top 8 goal scorers of Brazil and Argentina, most goals in ARG-BRA in relation to team edge:

    8 goals from 18 team goals or 44%, Pele BRA
    7 goals from 15 team goals or 47%, Messi ARG
    5 goals from 11 team goals or 45%, Ronaldo BRA
    4 goals from 13 team goals or 31%, Rivaldo BRA
    3 goals from 07 team goals or 43%, Jairzinho BRA
    3 goals from 09 team goals or 33%, Zico BRA
    3 goals from 11 team goals or 27%, Bebeto BRA
    3 goals from 11 team goals or 27%, Crespo ARG
    3 goals from 16 team goals or 19%, Neymar BRA
    2 goals from 08 team goals or 25%, Batistuta ARG
    1 goals from 02 team goals or 50%, Romario BRA
    1 goals from 05 team goals or 20%, Passarella ARG
    1 goals from 05 team goals or 20%, Maradona ARG
    0 goals from 00 team goals or 00%, Artime ARG
    0 goals from 05 team goals or 00%, Aguero ARG
    0 goals from 06 team goals or 00%, Higuain ARG
     
  14. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Because they are not Senior NT matches. Even the hat-trick in NY was scored against an U-23 CB pairing preparing for Olympics. Those 2 guys never saw the light of the NT after that. But that one isn't Messi's fault as the game was a regular friendly and Brazil chose to put out an Olympic test team. So Messi has 5 goals in Senior NT matches vs Brazil.

    But it's a statistic in friendlies which in all honesty, means little and is beneath his real achievements IMO.

    BTW .. that was a poorly taken PK too. Got lucky on that one. Hope he got that out of his system for Barca. That's the 2nd PK he misses in 2 vs Brazil.
     
  15. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    true but he was the best player on the pitch. that long pass to otamendi tho
     
  16. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    agree with that but friendly game between argetina and brazil isnt normal friendly game either
     
  17. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    For me, Argentina-Brazil friendlies have £o$t their £u$t€r since they began pimping them to the highest bidder outside South America.
     
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  18. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    I’m sick of all the comparisons with Cronaldo especially when they throw fakeRonaldo’s international goals into the ring ...

    Messi plays an awful lot of games against good quality South American teams whilst Portugal play loads of micro countries bordering on pub team quality...,

    The formidable Luxembourg defence lie in wait of CR07 next
     
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  19. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Brazil does almost always take friendly games pretty seriously. Specially when you have players trying to prove something to secure a spot in the team. Generally speaking, I think SA teams give close to 100% in these games. They are pretty contested affairs. However it does stick out like a sore thumb that Messi has 0 goals and 0 assists vs Brazil in 5 (I thought it was 6 but he missed 1 WCQ game last time around) competitive matches and has been for the most part, pretty well contained. It does mean something, but not necessarily on Messi himself.
     
  20. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messi has almost double the goals against legit teams than Cronaldo.
     
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  21. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    These are the teams Cronaldo has scored against in the last few years ..
    I reckon I’d score against a few of these :)


    IMG_2105.PNG IMG_2104.PNG IMG_2103.PNG IMG_2102.PNG IMG_2101.PNG
     
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  22. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    And I wasn't talking about senior matches, I was talking about ARG-BRA. All seven goals vs. Brazil. Seems really like to score stunners against you.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  23. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    National team goals (games, ga) vs top 5 EU/SA (Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, England, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Uruguay)

    19 (46, 0.41) Messi (playmaker)
    14 (35, 0.40) Neymar (playmaker)
    13 (36, 0.36) Suarez (striker)
    4 (25, 0.16) Cronaldo (striker)
     
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  24. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The first two are not Senior NT games.
     
  25. Danko

    Danko Member+

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    This is why I have little doubt that Messi has actually been the better individual performer than Ronaldo on the international stage. If we take away goals against absolute minnows like Lithuania, Andorra, Luxerbourg etc. from both men, Messi actually has a lot more international goals as well. No matter how you slice the data, Messi has been much better against real opposition.

    People must also understand that the disparity between the best and worst international teams is also far larger than the disparity between the best and worst club teams in the context of Messi and Ronaldo. The worst squad Barca faces in La Liga or CL is still filled with top tier professionals like a Leganes or Slavia Prague. Meanwhile the national team of Andorra which is a country as big as a city block is well... If I say it's easier to make the national team of Andorra then a typical high school team in Buenos Aires I may not be exaggerating.

    Last but not least, the only real competitive matches that truly matter are the World Cup and Euro/Copa. Messi was arguably the best player at the 2014 WC, 2015 Copa, and 2016 Copa while Ronaldo was never the best.
     
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