The "Messi: the best player in the world. Is it even up for discussion?" thread

Discussion in 'Barcelona' started by jfcule, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. verde-rubro

    verde-rubro Member+

    C.S.Maritimo + Liverpool FC
    Portugal
    Jan 15, 2005
    LONDON
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    X2

    Excellent post
     
  2. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Round 3 Modric vs. Iceland

    Quiet game, didn't create any great chances, nor had any chances to score and Croatia scored two goals without him. It's not as bad as being suspended in a crucial game like Zidane, but it's the closest one.

    World Cup Performance Index
    , considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as gold, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

    1.
    Messi 14 vs Nigeria
    2.
    Robben 14 vs Chile
    Cruyff 74 vs Bulgaria
    Pele 70 vs Romania
    Jairzinho 70 vs Romania
    6.
    G.Müller 70 vs Peru
    Eusebio 66 vs Brazil
    8.
    Romario 94 vs Sweden
    Schillaci 90 vs Czechoslovakia
    10.
    Maradona 86 vs Bulgaria
    11.
    Forlan 10 vs Mexico
    Rossi 82 vs Cameroon
    13.
    Charlton 66 vs France
    14.
    Ronaldo 02 vs Costa Rica
    Ronaldo 98 vs Norway
    Suker 98 vs Argentina
    Kempes 78 vs Italy
    18.
    Modric 18 vs Iceland
    19.
    Zidane 06 (double yellow)
     
  3. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Round 4 Modric vs. Denmark

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Created 3 great chance's, missed a penalty and scored in SO. Because Croatia managed crucial goal without his input, it isn't really Romario vs USA tier, but at the same time, he created 3 chances to 1 miss and scored in SO, which is why feel it's better than the second last tier, which has same importance, but where players mostly scored a goal from many chances.

    World Cup Performance Index
    , considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as gold, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

    1.
    Eusebio vs North Korea
    2.
    Messi 14 vs Switzerland
    Kempes 78 vs Poland
    4.
    Robben 14 vs Mexico
    5.
    Cruyff 74 vs Argentina
    6.
    Forlan 10 vs South Korea
    Zidane 06 vs Spain
    Maradona 86 vs Uruguay
    Jairzinho 70 vs Peru
    10.
    Suker 98 vs Romania
    Romario 94 vs USA
    12.
    Modric 18 vs Denmark
    13.
    Ronaldo 02 vs Belgium
    Ronaldo 98 vs Chile
    Schillaci 90 vs Uruguay
    Rossi 82 vs Argentina
    Pele 70 vs Peru
    G.Müller 70 vs England
    19.
    Charlton 66 vs Argentina
     
  4. evil_allan

    evil_allan Member+

    May 3, 2004
    Turtle Island

    TLDR translation: haha Messi didn't win the World Cup. Neener Neener! :thumbsup::rolleyes:
     
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  5. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Round 5 Modric vs Russia

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Failed tackle on his man which allowed Russia's goal, assisted one goal of two team goals, created one additional chance which also turned into a bad miss, and also scored in the SO. It's again difficult to directly compare when unusually player was directly resposible of goal for opponent, but I think it compares to Romario vs Netherlands. Tie in importance, Romario involved 1/3 goals, Modric involved 1/2 goals + opponents goal + SO goal. In quality both created one additional great chance but slight favor for Modric for missing only one great chance instead of two.

    World Cup Performance Index, considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as gold, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

    1.
    Maradona 86 vs England
    Rossi 82 vs Brazil
    3.
    Forlan 10 vs Ghana
    4.
    Charlton 66 vs Portugal
    5.
    Zidane 06 vs Brazil
    6.
    Suker 98 vs Germany
    7.
    Messi 14 vs Belgium
    Robben 14 vs Costa Rica
    Ronaldo 98 vs Denmark
    10.
    Jairzinho 70 vs Uruguay
    Eusebio 66 vs England
    12.
    Schillaci 90 vs Ireland
    G.Müller 70 vs Italy
    14.
    Modric 18 vs Belgium
    15.
    Romario 94 vs Netherlands
    Pele 70 vs Uruguay
    17.
    Kempes 78 vs Brazil
    18.
    Cruyff 74 vs East Germany
    19.
    Ronaldo 02 vs England
     
  6. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #4506 Bada Bing, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    Round 6 Modric vs England

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Again started the game with an abysmal tackle, which led to the England goal, and created one good chance when Croatia scored two goals without his input. It's a bad performance. I don't think it's the worst performance in this round, because Charlton also pretty much did nothing when England scored 4 goals, but it's very close.

    World Cup Performance Index, considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as gold, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

    1.
    Maradona 86 vs Belgium
    2.
    Ronaldo 02 vs Turkey
    3.
    Schillaci 90 vs Argentina
    Rossi 82 vs Poland
    5.
    Kempes 78 vs Peru
    Cruyff 74 vs Brazil
    7.
    Suker 98 vs France
    8.
    Pele 70 vs Italy
    Jairzinho 70 vs Italy
    10.
    Romario 94 vs Sweden
    G.Müller 70 vs Uruguay
    12.
    Messi 14 vs Netherlands
    Forlan 10 vs Netherlands
    Ronaldo 98 vs Netherlands
    15.
    Robben 14 vs Argentina
    Zidane 06 vs Portugal
    17.
    Eusebio 66 vs Soviet Union
    18.
    Modric 18 vs England
    19.
    Charlton 66 vs West Germany
     
  7. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #4507 Bada Bing, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    Round 7 Modric vs France

    [​IMG]

    Nothing much happened for Modric in this game, was part of the first goal of the two Croatia scored. I think it fits right below Forlan 10, with same importance, although Forlan had more eventful game missing and creating couple more chances.

    World Cup Performance Index
    , considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as gold, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

    1.
    Kempes 78 vs Netherlands
    2.
    Robben 14 vs Brazil
    Schillaci 90 vs England
    Suker 98 vs Netherlands
    Cruyff 74 vs West Germany
    6.
    Forlan 10 vs Germany
    Ronaldo 02 vs Germany
    8.
    Modric 18 vs France
    9.
    Rossi 82 vs West Germany
    10.
    Maradona 86 vs West Germany
    11.
    Messi 14 vs Germany
    12.
    Ronaldo 98 vs France
    13.
    Romario 94 vs Italy
    14.
    Zidane 06 vs Italy
     
  8. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    zidane as goat mean your whole post is meaningless. thuram is a better candidate.
     
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  9. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    i belive rakitic is on par with modric this world cup. hazard should have won that award
     
  10. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yeah, watching the games I got a feeling that Rakitic was actually better, although I wasn't concentrating on him, many chances originated from him. Hazard easily had better performance than Modric, even without analyzing it. I still have to write a summary and rate the whole performance for Modric but it isn't looking too good.
     
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  11. evil_allan

    evil_allan Member+

    May 3, 2004
    Turtle Island
    Shouldn't these be in the World Cup thread? why the Messi thread?
     
  12. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Messi compares decently actually. Maybe not so much with Pele and Maradona, but everyone else for sure. Its just that people set a very high bar for him. Perhaps righty so because he’s the best of his era. But take for e.g. :

    - the outrage from Messi winning ballon dor for WC 2014. Where was the outrage for Modric winning the same four years later? Should I congratulate Croatia on winning the World cup?

    - Cruyff losing a WC final is considered almost romantic through nostalgic glasses, but Messi doing the exact same is widely classified as a “choke”. But then again, Cruyff did light it up in the final. Oh wait....

    - Messi widely critisized for disappearing from the QF stage onward in WC 2014, Ronaldo disappeared after 5 minutes of the second group stage game in 2018 yet widely considered to have had a very good tournament.
     
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  13. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Nah, they will be lost on there, and I will make comparison to Messi's WC14 performance, and football journalism on whole. The whole comparison started when people were slating Messi's performance, even though it's one of the best ever in the World Cup, yet nobody is batting an eye on Modric when it isn't even remotely as good as Messi's, maybe even the worst Golden Ball performance. I had a thread for this subject on beautiful game forum, but I can't access it anymore because of biased mods. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/maradona-86-vs-messi-14.2008702/
     
  14. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #4514 Bada Bing, Jul 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
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  15. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    Real Madrid fan on Cristiano RONALDO:

    @AlanazoRM tweeted: “This is how he pays us back after we had to lie for 9 years saying he was better than Messi.”
     
  16. Umar

    Umar Member+

    Sep 13, 2005
    One step ahead
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Palestine
    Messi actually was just as decisive in the knockout stages of the 2018 WC as the 2014 WC. In fact he probably did better in the knockouts this time than he did in 2014, as he didn’t miss a decisive 1v1 in the final this time. He surely should have been best player of 2018 also.
     
  17. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    The fact that you define that as “1v1” proves my point that the bar is set so much higher for Messi than anyone else.

    But, yes, he did get two assists against France . In the Modric world that would be an entire tournament of productivity. :cool:
     
  18. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    Still more decisive than Cristiano has been ever been in any of his World Cup knockouts. All Cristiano is known for is his winking after getting people sent off.

    Or are you not “following” Cristiano anymore?
     
  19. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    People who think Ronaldo had a better World Cup than Messi is retarded. Argies with a shite squad wasn’t even that bad against the champions. First off, Argentina wouldn’t have qualified to the quarters if it wasn’t for Messi’s first goal against Nigeria.
     
  20. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    He explains how senior members of the team led my Messi and Mascherano squared up with Sampaoli and his assistants Sebastián Beccacece and Lionel Scaloni, listing their grievances for 15 minutes before telling the manager: ‘We do not get what you say. We no longer trust you. We want to have an opinion.’

    ‘On what?’ Sampaoli asked, to which the group replied: ‘Everything.’ According to the book, the Argentina boss then asked: ‘so you are going to put the team together, direct in training, everything?’ That drew a response from Messi, who replied: ‘You have asked me 10 times which players I wanted in the line-up and which I didn’t, and I never gave you a single name. Tell me, in front of everyone, if I ever gave you any names.’
     
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  21. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007

    Such a horrible mess for us. As to what Messi said, I have always felt he has been the guy to not meddle in any of this, like it has been claimed that he decides which players he wants to play with, the “Messi and friends” phenomenon.

    Not because he’s such a nice guy, but because he only seems to want to play — not lead or manage a team.

    Secondly, imagine a CEO of a company asking his employers, so you want to direct the company from now on....biggest flaw with Sampaoli was that he tried to fit his system on a group of players who had no aptitude to play that system.

    Good managers fit their system around the players they have.
     
  22. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I wouldn't think so either, but there were so many rumors that when there is typically smoke there is fire. I saw Crespo in one of those WC daily review programs on Fox basically say that he does influence player call ups. Perhaps it was just Icardi and then everything else got extrapolated.
     
  23. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    Wonder why Dybala doesn't get a look in !?!?
     
  24. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #4524 Bada Bing, Jul 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
    For a Golden Ball performance Modric WC18 isn't good, for me it's the third worst performance. It's pretty equal to Charlton 66, maybe slightly better. Both were involved the same amount of team goals 45% vs 43%, both advanced the play same by dribbling 15 players, and although Modric created more chances, Charlton tackled more and were better round by round in four games to three.

    This again gives additional perspective how good Messi WC14 performance really was, and how football journalist work for creating exaggerated headlines (mostly fake) to drive traffic to their sites, and how this then usually gets instilled on football fans memory. Messi scored twice the goals, was involved almost all the team goals 88% to 43%, created twice the great chances, was round by round better in 6 games, advanced the game by dribbling three times more and even had the same amount of tackles. Croatia even conceded two goals directly because Modric failed tackle on his man. Whole deluded football world shat on Messi WC14, and didn't bat an eye for Modric's WC18 Golden Ball, and that alone already shows why football today is fake on media level.

    World Cup performance index, considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as golden, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

    1.
    Maradona 86
    Messi 14

    3.
    Kempes 78
    4.
    Jairzinho 70

    5.
    Robben 14
    Cruyff 74
    7.
    Forlan 10
    8.
    Romario 94
    9.
    Eusebio 66
    Pele 70
    Rossi 82

    12.
    G.Müller 70
    Schillaci 90
    Suker 98
    15.
    Ronaldo 02
    Charlton 66
    Modric 18

    18.
    Ronaldo 98
    19.
    Zidane 06
     
  25. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC

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