The Klinsmann Coaching thread, v1

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by bungadiri, Dec 28, 2011.

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  1. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not impossible. JK did that with Terence Boyd. I just think it's not a good idea.
     
  2. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, you are conflating a number of different things that I wrote into a jumbled mess.

    There are two separate things being discussed. The subject of whether there was ever a time that people discussed Holden as our best CM option is completely separate. The period that you stated above IS CORRECTLY the period for discussing whether Holden was our best CM option. I'll add that Bradley did not ignore Holden during this period, as I've stated above, though that has nothing to do with whether Bradley did a good job of bringing Holden along as an international because Holden was already a starter at Bolton at that point.

    The period of time that people discussed Holden as our best CM option, the period you stated above is NOT the period that I discussed in the other context, which is when Bradley could have been grooming a promising Holden with international caps (but wasn't). That period of time is the period from the end of the Olympics (August 2008) through the start of the B/C team Gold Cup in 2009. So, for example, Holden could have been called up for any of the WCQ games at the end of 2008 or beginning of 2009 or could have been called to the 2009 Confederations Cup....though I realize that he'd be taking the place of luminaries like Danny Szetela, Marvelle Wynne. But that's the thing, if Bradley was actually doing a good job of grooming Holden for international play, he would have taken spots from those guys or guys like Kljestan.
     
  3. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    From August 2010-March 2011 was he our best MF? Yes. He started in the two October friendlies, out wide. No big deal, he was on a run of good form (EPL season only being 5 weeks old by that time). It soon became clear after that, it wasn't a run on form. He was having a great season

    Bob had intended to insert him in a CM role for the Argentina/Paraguay matches in March, the week after he was injured.
     
  4. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Christ. SEMANTICS.

    I also think it's not a good idea.
     
  5. Otergod

    Otergod Member+

    Sep 20, 2007
    indianapolis
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Neutral as in "i'm not touching this arguement because i've had it too many times"

    I was simply posting the chain of events that occurred, not taking either side :whistling:
     
  6. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    [​IMG]
    He looked good to go for Argentina. It was just a flesh wound.
     
  7. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Red color and underlining added.

    Yes, I think the other context of switching to the period when Holden was breaking into Houston's lineup and the U23's in 2008 is what you brought up after the first context wasn't getting you anywhere and folks questioned you on the facts of Holden's September 2010-March 2011 period. That's what some viewed as moving the goalposts.
     
    GVPATS77 repped this.
  9. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, that's not correct. I brought up Holden post-Olympics at post #1214. The post that started the whole sub-discussion of whether anyone ever discussed Holden being our best CM that should be deployed at CM was initiated by Adiago Two at post #1247.

    But per usual, you guys don't even take the chance to actually read, you're so eager to pounce on anything that does not glorify all things Bradley.

    It seriously is a waste of time trying to have any kind of discussion with certain posters. I posted a meaningful response to your post on Friday afternoon (that, by the way, made very clear the period that I was discussing with respect to the grooming Holden issue) and got nothing in response from you other than this post today with a conjured up and inaccurate "timeline"--demonstrating at least to me, that there is no intention to engage in any real discussion.
     
  10. vponce75

    vponce75 BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 16, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Someone make it stop...
     
  11. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    That was never discussed by anyone in this thread, other than you right now.


    If this is truly your position, how do you explain the fact that Bradley attempted to call Holden into his first camp in Jan 2009 (before Holden moved to Bolton), but Holden got injured during that camp.

    I realize you want to try and create a scenario where Bradley is the bad guy. And its entirely possible that Holden would have had a standout performance against Sweden in the 2009 Camp Cupcake, which would have put him on the radar for those World Cup qualifiers between the Olympics and the 2009 Gold Cup.

    We will never know though because Holden got injured in that camp. Furthermore, Holden didn't even begin to start for his club team until March of 2009 - let alone establish himself. By your own words, it would be a bad decision for a coach to have called him up before establishing himself as a regular starter. So based on your own criteria for when a coach should call up a player(which you have stated over and over, including saying that JK calling up Boyd is a mistake), you are completely contradicting yourself with your own time frame.

    Guys like Kljestan...who did distinguish themselves in that game, seemed to have been fast tracked a little sooner than Holden...so it stands to reason that if Holden had stayed healthy during that camp, his career arc might have been sharper.

    But lets look at the time period following Holden establishing himself as a starter with his club team and the point where he transferred to Bolton, shall we?

    Bradley gave Holden a featured role in the 2009 Gold Cup, playing him primarily in the same role designated for Dempsey, which was as a centrally located midfielder, in a more advanced role than MB.

    Following the Gold Cup, Holden was a second half sub in the WORLD CUP QUALIFIER AT THE AZTECA....before transferring to Bolton.

    He was also a second half sub against El Salvador, Trinidad and Tobago in World Cup qualifying in 2009....before moving to Bolton.

    He then Started against Honduras...on the road....in World Cup qualifying.....in 2009....before moving to Bolton.

    He started again against Costa Rica....in World Cup qualifying....in 2009....before moving to Bolton.

    He then started against Denmark, in a friendly, on the road, in 2009....before moving to Bolton.

    Not if that isn't the textbook definition of grooming a player with international caps, in a time period before Holden had established himself in the EPL...then by your standards, no coach in the history of soccer has ever groomed any player ever.


    But to suggest that a coach should have done a better job of grooming a player, in a hyper-specific window of time is nitpicking of the highest order. Couple that with the fact that Holden wouldn't even establish himself as a starter for his club team following the Olympics, and didn't actually begin starting until 7 months after the Olympics...and its pretty clear that you are grasping at straws.

    Now please feel free to tell me that I have no reading comprehension ability, and that the exact time frame that you are pointing to wasn't completely addressed in this post. Because that's what you do. When presented with actual facts and a historical timeline reference, you don't have a leg to stand on.
     
  12. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This was one of your first posts leading to this derailing:

    What I would argue is that:

    1. JK has not exhausted all the options/possibilities in terms of callups and should be starting more of our younger defenders more often.

    2.. Shifting around the midfield to account for problems on the defensive line should be a last resort. A change that is made just before the World Cup because you have exhausted all your time and resources in actually trying to fix what's wrong.

    If you disagree with either of those statements then I agree to disagree.
     
  13. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    How dare you insult Stu by thinking that playing in the attacking wide-to-in MF position, where most of the creativity of said formation came from, in Bob's preferred offense is considered a good thing.

    Clearly Stu should have insisted on more.
     
    Craig P repped this.
  14. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is my last response to you. Ever.
    Wrong, see, e.g., post 1247


    Camp Cupcake is not the same as a regular call-up, as you well know. It's often a chance to reward guys who have had good MLS seasons. As I mentioned pages ago, I take issue with the idea that a Camp Cupcake call-up is as meaningful as any other call up, friendly or otherwise. It's not the full senior team and it's not facing a full-strength opponent.

    No, incorrect, as I mentioned in posts earlier, I do not think that it is an appropriate responsibility for a national team manager to "bring along" players with international caps. I believe that that is the province of the club team. The national team manager is supposed to deploy the players at his disposal based on their current form. I am not making Bradley out to be the bad guy. I pointed out that if you take JK to task for this, which I don't, you should also take Bradley to task for the same deficiency.


    Kljestan was getting call-ups before that Camp Cupcake. In fact, Kljestan got call-ups for the games right after the Olympics (as did Danny Szetela, Freddy Adu and Marvelle Wynne). Holden could have played those games as well but did not (and you'd think that his team wouldn't have missed him, given that, as you said, he was just a bench player...ahem).



    Do you read? Do you actually read? Those are all Gold Cup and after, they're irrelevant to the discussion.

    Or are you going to make the argument that Camp Cupcake call-ups are the same as full senior team call-ups?


    No, it's attempting to actually look at the facts in a meaningful way to address the topic that was raised. You don't like the answer it produces so you attempt to change the topic of discussion to one that suits the facts in your favor or, as immediately above, make clear that you just don't like the discussion. There's no need to grasp at straws. Holden had a stand-out Olympics in 2008. Other guys on the team got senior team caps right afterward. Holden got only the equivalent of Camp Cupcake call-ups after that time until his selection to the 2009 Gold Cup best XI team demanded that people take notice to the point that Bradley would have been opening himself up to derision by continuing to avoid calling Holden up.

    I don't know if you can't read or you just choose not to. That's not my business.

    But now I'll find out how to put you on "ignore" in this new setup.
     
  15. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, in response to the idea that JK has not addressed the weakness at CB, pointing out that he has addressed it in some manner.

    I agree with #1.

    As concerns #2, agree to disagree--I'll say that my preference would be that we wouldn't need to do this, but admittedly I don't know as much about the game as JK does, so I'll own up to my ignorance and provide for the fact that there are likely good reasons for the midfield switch and that this switch itself may not be the sole reason that our attack often times has seemed less potent.
     
  16. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You really want to get back into this topic again?
     
  17. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    I don't blame you. I wouldn't want to have to read the post of the guy that owned me either.
     
  18. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly. He was a bench player at that time...in MLS. Meanwhile guys like Kljestan were in contention for ROY, MLS All Stars, etc. back then and had already broken into the team in the Copa America.

    And this is where your argument falls flat on its face for me. No one was really discussing Holden's play during or after the Olympics. A few people including myself said he was the most consistent player.
     
  19. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And FYI that is the most important aspect to me this cycle. A 110% complete and thorough role call on the defense and then getting the top tier of those guys as many minutes as possible in preparation for 2014.

    It's really my one and only complaint about JK up to this point, but to me it is the most important issue to be addressed this cycle.
     
  20. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, which matters a great deal more if we are talking about giving caps to players that have earned it through their club play vs the topic at hand which is using international caps to groom a player into international quality.

    I certainly don't remember it that way. I don't remember people talking about any other midfielders more than Holden (nor remember Holden being out-performed by any other mid). I remember Holden had our goal against Japan and followed it up by a really great game against Holland, but was ultimately remembered on this forum as the goat because of the free kick we gave up because of his foul near the box. For me, he was THE one to watch coming out of that tourney. Maybe I just have an extraordinary eye for talent. ;)
     
  21. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you are going to make that claim you have to add who and when and be prepared to defend those reaches if/when they happen.

    In addition to Boca and Goodson who ended as the GC2011 starters, JK brought in:

    Orozco: 5 matches 3 starts
    Ream: 5 matches 1 sub
    Gooch who impressed v Honduras and Ecuador before getting another knee knock.
    Cameron: 8 matches, 3 starts, 1 sub (the 2 starts were CC2012), 2nd half WCQ v Guatemala
    Parkhurst:8 matches, 2 starts, 1 sub (the 2 starts were CC2012)
    Parke: 2 matches at CC2012, 1 sub

    Gonzo and John declined CC2012 calls to pursue Euro chances.

    Who did JK miss?
     
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  22. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just went back and scanned a few 2008 Olympics threads including a report card thread and MVP thread and Holden seems to be getting a lot of praise, almost always rated highest among midfielders, even though he was the goat vs. Netherlands.
     
  23. Adiaga Two

    Adiaga Two Member+

    Oct 4, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To bring this this central midfield debate towards more relevant territory for this thread...

    Klinsmann's freezing out of Bradley and Jones in favor of Beckerman and Edu early in his tenure was far more egregious than any supposed snub that Twitter superstar Stuart Holden ever received from the Bob regime.
     
  24. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just off the top of my head The last 5 +- games have been some combination of Goodson/Boca/Gooch (I think maybe Cameron got the start in one of those).

    Those were all opportunities to play someone else.
     
    GVPATS77 repped this.
  25. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Quotes?

    I remember Edu, Kljestan, Wynne, Davies, Adu, and Bradley getting high marks (deserved or not).

    I remember Rogers and Nowak being the whipping boys.
     

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