The Klinsmann Coaching thread, v1

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by bungadiri, Dec 28, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    Ok, maybe some people were. Was Bob Bradley? Maybe that says more about the people pimping Wynne than it does about Holden's demonstration of ability at the time?;)
     
  2. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Freddy Adu pretty much dominated when he played against other children too. That isn't always the best indicator of how a person will develop when they finally get to play aganst grown ass men who are also professionals.

    Holden did show great promise at youth levels and in brief minutes he recieved with the Dynamo. As his role increased at the club level increased and he showed that he could excel, his role with the national team increased accordingly.

    The way you talk, Bob was an idiot for not capping every teenager that showed some promise.

    He probably should have capped Brandon Manzonelli by your estimation.
     
  3. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    So its Bob Bradley's fault that Holden has only been healthy for about 6 months in the last 3 years?

    That's brilliant.
     
  4. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    Siem Reap, Cambodia
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Country:
    United States
    :rolleyes: You have collapsed about 4 major untruths into a single paragraph. I encourage you to get over this nonsense and move on . . .
     
  5. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Country:
    Bolivia
    What I remember from Holden most, was his amazing first time crosses from the wings during his time with houston. Very Beckham'esque.

    I for one was rooting to keep him out wide because of how useful he could have been. I wasn't 100 percent sold on him in the middle over (my opinion then) Mike Bradley/Edu and Torres.
    Boy was I wrong! Wish he would have stayed healthy enough to contribute to the NT side. It seems like people have been waiting forever for him to take his spot in the CM. Until he ever gets healthy, Holden may as well be a legend.

    I really liked his play vs, Turkey was it? Him, Bradley, and Torres were linking so smoothly that game... like 'butta'.
     
  6. Spursfan1

    Spursfan1 Member+

    Sep 7, 2010
    Atlanta
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Country:
    United States
    Dont care about this holden stuff. irrelevant really.

    BB did an awesome job.

    JK is working to take us to a different place. growing pains throughout the process.
     
    vaquero28 and Bolivianfuego repped this.
  7. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    Typical. Avoid the actual issue and attack on something else.

    It has nothing to do with Holden playing against U23s and has everything to do with whether a guy with actual promise like Holden should have been given caps to be brought along to international quality. If Holden is playing at the same level (or making more of an impact) as guys on the Olympic team that are already getting senior caps, do you think that that has no meaning?

    No, the way that I talk has nothing to do with Bob capping every teenager. If the position is that the national team manager should be helping players with promise along so that they can reach international quality, it's clear that with Holden Bob didn't do that so we shouldn't place that kind of expectation on JK to do it, either.
     
  8. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    Know what's brilliant? Being able to avoid responding to the actual issue spouting off nonsense instead. What you've written has nothing to do with either the original topic (whether the manager has the responsibility to bring along players with promise to give them international quality) nor my direct response which was when people were taking issue with deploying Holden out wide. Well done, wouldn't expect more or less.
     
    TheHoustonHoyaFan repped this.
  9. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    None of those items are untrue. The only inaccuracy, which I pushed so as to be more in Michael's favor, could be that part of this time Bradley wasn't seeing the field at all when he was loaned out to Villa, which makes the point that much stronger.
     
  10. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    Siem Reap, Cambodia
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Country:
    United States
    This is all very, very old stuff that has been rehashed many many times and has been proven incorrect, repeatedly.

    Here is how weird you now want to make this.

    Michael Bradley was sat by his Borussia Moenchengladbach coach on December 18, 2010 after appearing and mostly starting in 76 matches over the two plus years.

    Stuart Holden was injured on March 19, 2011 .

    Between this three month window, the United States played one camp cupcake (where basically a "B" team was utilized) match in Carson California on January 22.

    So, according to your logic, because Michael was not playing, the injured and ACL rehabbing Stuart Holden should have played.

    Got it. . .

    So, here, I will do the other donkey work for you . . .

    Here is the USSF men's schedule for 2010
    http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/US-Men/Schedule-Results/2010.aspx

    Holden was initially injured by DeJong in the March 3, 2010 match, he was starting not sitting, right? And that was the very exact first match he could have started after going to the premiership, correct? (again, excluding the camp cupcake matches that are not on International dates)

    So anyway, which are these matches that Holden sat at Michael's "having to play" when he should have been starting?

    Really, it makes about as much sense as someone sqawking that Bruce favored Ben Olson in 2006 because (the injured) John O'Brien was (really not) available.

    Anyway, what is your thought on JK? (really this is the thread topic). Start another thread on this old tired stuff and see where it goes.

    Don't you think he should be sitting Mike and playing Holden??:)
     
  11. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    Recall that Adiaga 2 brought up the subject regarding discussion of deployment of Holden at CM vs outside midfield.

    So essentially your point is that for any time after he returned from his initial injury and returned to form, no one should have been discussing the fact that when the USMNT were playing it should deploy Holden at CM because, somehow, everyone should have been prescient and known that in the very near future he would suffer another catastrophic injury? That's the only way that this point above makes sense, is if people knew that Holden would be injured in the future and so would not be available for prospective selection (i.e, even beyond Camp Cupcake to future games).

    Otherwise, for those without clairvoyance and who did not otherwise anticipate injury, they would have been discussing future call-ups, future deployments and would have included Holden in that discussion because there would have been no reason to assume that Holden would not have been available, going forward.

    I think JK's doing ok, getting better each game, but still not awe inspiring.
     
  12. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Should Benny Feilhaber have been capped with the senior national team directly after the U-20 qualifying tournament that he dominated?

    Nope.

    Bradley did give Holden minutes. He did bring him along. He did groom him for international play.

    Then Holden got his leg broken by De Jong. The he got injured again. Then he got injured again.

    Any argument you try to make that says that Bradley didn't bring Holden into the national team fold is ludicrous and wrong.

    Holden was called into Camp Cupcake in Jan 2009, BEFORE he had even earned a starting role with an MLS team, based largely on his performance in the Olympics. Surprise, Surprise...Holden got injured in that camp and had to withdraw from the camp.

    The next 10 games following that friendly were World Cup Qualifiers and the Confed Cup...not exactly games where you want to give a guy his first cap.

    But Holden was having a great season in Houston. His first as a starter. And as such, he was rewarded with a featured role on the Gold Cup squad.

    Holden got 11 caps from June of 2009-Dec. of 2009.

    He got 6 more caps in 2010. Unfortunately, he injured his leg in the Netherlands friendly (his first cap of 2010). Despite the fact that he had barely recovered from that injury, he was named to the World Cup squad. He got a start in the warm up game against the Czechs and came on as a sub against Turkey....he was clearly still visibly slowed down by the injury he had just received a couple months earlier. Even still he got another cap in the World Cup.

    As his health returned, he got two more starts under Bradley (with the A team) in the 4 friendlies scheduled after the World Cup.

    2011 - Holden is not called up to Camp Cupcake in the January friendly. In March, his leg gets DeJonged by Johnny Evans, and he has barely been healthy long enough to make a national team camp let alone get additional caps.

    Bob Bradley did everything he could to bring a promising young player into the mix. Holden got 17 caps in an 18 month period of time, which included 6 weeks missed for a broken leg and another injury layoff in early 2009. Holden hasn't been consistently healthy since March of 2011.

    How you can distort easily verifiable facts to pursue your own agenda is laughable. Take your head trash elsewhere.
     
  13. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Country:
    Bolivia
    Whats up with all this holden discussion?
     
  14. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Holden got hurt vs. Manyoo on the weekend before the int'l break. If you recall in the match vs. Argentina we saw Michael, Jones and Edu start in the middle for the first time. Holden was supposed to be in that Edu spot.
     
  15. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    ONCE AGAIN, most of what you have written is completely irrelevant to the point being discussed...which is your style.
     
  16. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    This tangent started when people argued that Klinsmann isn't doing a good job of bringing young players into the national team setup.

    Your rebuttal was that Bradley failed to do the same thing with Holden, and as such, people shouldn't hold Klinsmann to a different standard.

    You were proven wrong with concern to Stuart Holden.

    Argue all you want about how everyone's posts are irrelevant to your assertion that Bradley failed to bring along Holden in an appropriate manner. You are the only one here who hasn't backed up your claim with anything that even approached evidence.
     
  17. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    It's actually about Bob Bradley, the coach of Egypt.
     
    vponce75 and Bolivianfuego repped this.
  18. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Country:
    Bolivia
    Gotcha. It all makes sense now.
     
  19. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    Of course I wasn't proven wrong. You tend to do this, throw out a bunch of information that isn't on point and then claim victory.
     
  20. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Country:
    United States
    Not really. I've been following this unfortunate tangent about Holden. You started it with claims regarding the prior coaching staff in 2010 and 2011, which several posters have shown to be factually wrong.

    Anyway, to try and turn this back to Klinsman's coaching, I'd say that Holden was treated by the prior coach in a somewhat similar way to Klinsman's treatment of Joe Corona. Each was a promising young player who was called into the U23 team after showing well as a sub and part-time starter for his club. When he performed well for the U23s, he got some Senior Nats callups. That's a rather logical progression.

    Holden had an immediate positive display for the 2009 Gold Cup team and earned some full A-team Caps and a spot on the World Cup squad which were sadly interrupted by multiple injuries. Corona also showed well for the U23s and has thus earned some Senior callups under Klinsi, but hasn't performed quite as well as quickly as Holden did. Time will tell how closely the analogy plays out.
     
    deuteronomy repped this.
  21. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    I don't want to derail this thread anyone. Please send me a PM listing the games between the 2008 Olympics and the 2009 Gold Cup that Stuart Holden should have gotten caps in but didn't. That should settle it pretty quick.
     
  22. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Country:
    United States
    This started with the question whether the USMNT manager should be using USMNT national team caps to bring the player along and help to make the player international-ready. I pointed out, correctly, that Bradley did not do so with Holden. Holden had no senior team caps before he established himself as a capable international at the 2009 Gold Cup, a/k/a Camp Cupcake, summer edition, earning best XI honors despite playing with a B/C team. All of those items pointed out by GVPATS above are all post-Gold Cup and irrelevant to the point because they are after the period of time that Holden had established himself against able competition despite never having gotten a single senior team cap to that point.

    What I pointed out certainly hasn't been proven factually wrong.

    If you want to argue that Camp Cupcake invitations amount to using senior team caps to bring a player along and make him international-ready, then we're going to disagree. Those are not full senior teams and not against full side opponents.

    Bradley gets no credit for Holden for caps after the 2009 Gold Cup because it's already established that Holden is international quality as of this tourney (though arguably much earlier at the Olympics), it's beat-you-over-the-head obvious, even though he had to do it with the B/C team. Hell, he started playing for Bolton a few months later. If Bradley had started giving Holden caps post-Olympics, when his quality relative to his teammates who were already getting senior caps was on display, sure he would have been a little out in front. But not by Gold Cup.

    You want to say that Bob Bradley started deploying Holden as soon as he had earned a spot through his form. Fine, no problem with that statement, and that seems to be the point that GVPATS unwittingly keeps proving over and over. But that wasn't the issue.

    You guys are so incredibly sensitive about Bob Bradley and his legacy, not willing to concede that the guy ever put a foot wrong. Well, not everyone shares that opinion.

    That being said, I don't think that this is the USMNT manager's role. My opinion is that the USMNT manager should be deploying the guys that have earned the spot and that are in good club form. I don't think it's appropriate for the manager of the national teams to use caps to develop players. If they're not ready to contribute, they don't get caps.

    So while I think that Bob Bradley did not possess a terribly good eye for talent (or perhaps didn't trust his own judgment of talent) and was behind on Holden, I don't think he was wrong or deficient not to bring Holden along, because I don't think that that was appropriately part of Bob Bradley's job, and I don't believe that that is appropriately part of JK's job.

    If you ask me about calling up guys like Morales that could go to more than one country in order to persuade them to play for us, whether that is a good use of caps, I'm going to say a definite "maybe."

    If you ask me about capping guys like Terence Boyd that are far from finished products, I'm going to say that the jury is still out, but I'm not a big fan of this, in general. It goes at an area of extreme need (strikers) and it seems based on his performances so far that talent identification was accurate, and it may ultimately be a good move, but I'm still generally not a fan. I don't favor in discussing or dealing in what players "may become" or "were", only what they "are". A player can only contribute what he has, and that comes from his club. His club has to turn him into what he is or what he will become. Also, capping players based on what they may one day be able to contribute doesn't aid but impairs the competition in the battle for positions that seems to bring out the very best in players, because the other options are competing with the player but with an idea of that player that doesn't reflect reality.
     
    vaquero28 and Bolivianfuego repped this.
  23. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    FYP.

    Still waiting for that list. Since it was so blaringly obvious that Holden was international quality while riding the bench at Houston it shouldn't be too hard for you to PM me a list of games that Holden should have been called up for betwen the summer Olympics in 2008 and the Gold Cup in 2009.

    All you're doing is flapping your gums at this point, unless you can actually back up your (wrong) opinion.
     
  24. Adiaga Two

    Adiaga Two Member+

    Oct 4, 2008
    Country:
    United States
    For a long time, any American central midfielder who's last name wasn't Bradley became world-class in the minds of many.

    Remember how Maurice Edu was going to show his immense, Scottish-honed quality once Bob got fired and he could finally get a run of starts in the team?
     
  25. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    JrLA is pretty transparent and obvious. Just having a little fun.
     

Share This Page