The Jurgen Klinsmann's coaching Thread

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by bungadiri, Feb 21, 2015.

  1. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    From what have seen, you are absolutely correct about the U17's. But the real question is where are the foundations that Klinsmann laid. Did anything Klinsmann do enable, facillitate or otherwise improve the U17's beyond where they would be without him?
     
  2. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Look at the roster of the current U17's. What I find interesting is how many are currently attached to an MLS team (or a US based club). Consider for an instant, Klinsmann's relationship with MLS. How much influence do you think he had developing those players. As for the others, do you think Ajax was taking advice on how to handle and develop Weah?

    http://www.ussoccer.com/us-under17-mens-national-team/tournaments/2017-fifa-u17-world-cup#tab-3
     
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  3. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    like that confederations cup mexico winner take all? a 4th place gold cup?

    no, just. no. this was 1/3 Klinsmann, 1/3 arena, 1/3 the players, stop trying to absolve a party that was just as culpable as the rest (and a great many would make a very fair argument of moreso). We really dont need to break out the 5 volumes of encyclopedia britannica volumes on why Klinsmann's era is looked at as a failure. Everyone and their mom knows we were on a trajectory to not qualify with Klinsmann. Arena made his own cardinal sins that sealed the deal, and some of our own players thought much more highly of themselves than they were in their talent, however there is nothing that is a shining beacon there in that whole trilogy. Klinsmann is the furthest thing from a hero, and is right down there with Steve Sampson in modern era USMNT coaching disasters, and rightfully so. We will look back on it as a period of stagnation, irrelevance, and disappointment. it brought us absolutely nothing constructive. We are rock bottom, and Klinsmann was part of the foundation that brought us there: 1/3 klinsmann, 1/3 arena, 1/3 the players.
     
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  4. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting that before Klinsmann was fired your tune was that we had the best player pool that we have ever had and any competent manager would get us qualified.

    After Arena flames uut, suddenly we are rock bottom and Klinsmann is part of the foundation ...

    Such hypocrisy you preach!
     
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  5. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #13430 OWN(yewu)ED, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017

    I cannot help that Arena did the things that he did? I freely admit i felt he was the best hire given the circumstances of a house on fire. It didnt work out. Least you could do is admit you threw the gasoline on it. Therein lies the diference. Your prophet is just as false a prophet. Some of the players, especially Bradley and Altidore, arent who i thought they were. Omitting Benny was a mistake. Converting Zusi to right back was a mistake. Calling in Miguel Ibarra was a mistake. Playing a 3 man back line against mexico was a mistake. Starting Gonzalez under any circumstance in 2017 was a mistake. Calling in Captain Liechtenstein was a mistake. Everyone failed, its over. Everything you thought was true was WRONG, everything i thought was true was WRONG. everyone was wrong. the difference is, i admit it. I picked Hillary Clinton (the establishment good ole boy system), you picked Donald Trump (clown shoes snake oil salesman that most people recognize as a clown) we both picked false prophets that have no bearing on reality. Sack up, move on, lets focus on 2022 and how to fix it (Ill give you a hint, MAGA-ing isnt going to fix it)
     
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  6. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wait, what? You can say this with a straight face?
     
  7. iggymcfly

    iggymcfly Member

    Jun 20, 2014
    No, of course not. I was talking about BIG matches. A qualification match for a tournament that's about to be cancelled due to lack of interest where the eventual winner sent their C team doesn't count. Does anyone care that the US won the Gold Cup this year? I certainly don't. Will that make this new Arena era look like something other than an abject failure? Of course not.

    In the competitions that mattered, Klinsmann won the Hex, made it through a group with 2 of the Top 10 teams in the world at the World Cup and then made the semis of the Copa America Centenario. He would have gotten them out of the Hex again this year if a bunch of irrational hysteria hadn't caused the USSF to switch horses midstream in favor of a 65 year old that wasn't familiar with the current player pool at all. It's going to be remembered as the biggest mistake of Gulati's tenure.
     
  8. Chicago76

    Chicago76 Member+

    Jun 9, 2002
    I give you the following big matches:

    Belgium 2014 WC: tactically outclassed, Howard kept it close but the number of attacks/shots we surrendered (and my own eyes) tells me we weren't prepared.

    Argentina Copa Semifinal: arguably as big as it got in his tenure. We. Did. Not. Get. A . Single. Shot. Not one. Not even something hopeful from 30 yards out. Nada. Does that seem prepared?

    Colombia Copa Group Stage: we weren't prepared. Go back and watch the match.

    I won't pick on the qualifiers. I won't pick on the experimental choices during the Gold Cup. The one where we were on our back heels vs. Haiti in the group and where we drew w Panama in the same group before losing to Jamaica. Nevermind that winning that tournament would have eliminated the MEX playoff for the Confed Cup appearance.
     
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  9. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Its just such a shockingly false narrative, no one forgets how bad Klinsmann was just because Arena and the players crapped the bed this time. Nor will we forget.
     
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  10. nbstriker8

    nbstriker8 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 10, 2008
    new beige
    Club:
    SL Benfica
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS has gonna better over the last 5-6 years as far as youth teams are concerned. Klinsmann was hired 6 years ago. I don't believe in coincidence but if you do, fine!
     
  11. TheLostUniversity

    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Feb 4, 2007
    Greater Boston
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course, the very reasonable, and logical, conclusion would be that in this gig Bruce wasn't competent. He made some serious mistakes, and they cost us. And it took every ounce of "costing us" to fail to qualify for the WC. The good ship USMNT is lying on that rocky bottom, and it took some mighty incompetence to achieve that.
     
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  12. Iforgotwhat8wasfor

    Jun 28, 2007
    Come on guys, it's "Iggy McFly"....Stormtrooper's evil twin...
     
  13. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Actually I do.

    I also find it hard to believe that any of MLS' decisions over the past 6 or so years have been directly influenced by Klinsmann's leadership. Consdier the toxic relationship between the two parties. All MLS and Klinsmann did was fight. blame that on MLS if you want but either way MLS wasn't cooperating with Klinsmann.

    I believe that MLS' decisions were primarily based upon profit. Considering that they decided to implement youth development in 2008, I don't believe they got that from Klinsmman. I think it is fair to say, as you do, that they have improved much since then and if you want to narrow most of the significant growth to the past 5-6 yrs that is fine but I think the teams joining in have been more influenced by a few of the leaders (ie FC Dallas). Who gets credit for FC Dallas? Pareja? Klinsmann?

    I am not a fan of Klinsmann but I also believe USSF, espeially at this point, is capable of being the significant driver of US development in the US. I don't believe as much as others that the Olympic failures the past two cycles has hurt the national team as much as other factors such as youth development/transition to pro in the US (which still a long way to go). Would McKennie be in a better developmental environment if he were with the U20's instead of Shalke? It's at least arguable that he was better off with Shalke. The youth national teams can be a canary for the senior national team but they are hardly (or should hardly) be considered a crucial developmental tool.

    So, do I blame Klinsmann for some or all of the failures under him at the youth level? I don't believe he can be held accountable for anything other than personnel decisions (especially coaching). If you feel the coaches did a good job and were the right choices, he gets a pass.

    By the way, there is one area that Klinsmann, as technical director, should have been able to have a long term effect (longer than 5-6 yrs in my mind) and that is basic infrastructure. (coach licensing, cost of programs etc). I know he was involved in some way with some of the coaching issues. I don't know what was already in motion and what was his idea. I get the impression that he didn't really bring anything new but I suppose that if he continued with a good idea he should get credit for that. I also wonder how much time he was actually capable of spending as technical director while he was coaching.

    Sorry for the long post. It seemed like a simple short replay at the beginning....not so much at the end.
     
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  14. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Of course the big problem some are having is recognizing the disconnect between Arena and Klinsmann. Whatever anyone thinks about the overall talent pool or the players that Arena put on the field, they are good enough that they should have been able to beat T&T. Arena's failures don't justify Klinsamann's failures anymore than Klinsmann's failures justfy Arena's failures. We can go back and forth and say the team would have qualified if Klinsy had gotten at least one point out of the first 6, or we can say those were two of our most difficult games and Klinsmann would have rebounded. Both are just talk. We could even say that Arena got one point out of his two games between Mexico and CR so he's the better coach.....do we really want to set the bar that low?
     
  15. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    MLS has been building their academies before klinsman was involved. If you actually follow what MLS has been doing then you will realize they have constantly been working on improving the process year after year.

    They steadily kept adding lower age groups.

    They assessed what needed improvement and they went out and now have a partnership with the FFF for coaching. Look into their partnership with the French. And they are still working on improving the training. Coaches compare it to getting a master's degree.
     
  16. ForceMultiplier1994

    Jul 5, 2016
    Filthadelphia
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only thing I find mildly entertaining in all this are that the fans who btched, moaned and complained about Klinsmann during the 2014 World Cup for cutting Landon Donovan had their hearts ripped out by Bruce Arena.
    I feel no pity whatsoever for those clowns.
    If Landon Donovan would have been out there in the summer of 2014 he would've looked as lethargic and non-competitive as the entire U.S team looked against T&T.
    That fraction of U.S fans deserved to have their souls crushed this week and I'd like to see them remove themselves from the fan base.
     
  17. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lol you are too adorable sweetheart. the fact that you willfully endorse a coach who brought Aaron Johansson.....injured , Brad Davis, an injured mix diskerud, and Wondo over Donovan
    Means you cannot talk with the grown ups. Go play with your Klinsmann doll cupcake and tell us how mentally strong guys like Tim chandler are. Now haze yourself
     
  18. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are two problems, at a bare minimum, with your post.
    First, You have absolutely no basis for claiming, other than your deep and abiding faith in in the necessity of justifying all things Jurgen, that Landon would have looked as you describe him.
    Before, during and after the WC the last thing Landon could be described as was "lethargic and non-competitive". The only cup trophy Klinsmann has ever had came from the efforts of a very competitive and non-lethargic Landon Donovan. At the camp, even the most Klinsi-phantic of players admitted that Landon was tearing it up. And after the camp, Landon tore up league play in his last year. Even in that last international friendly for Landon, forced on a very reluctant JK, the gulf between what Landon still could offer, and what came out of most of the American players, was startling.

    Second, as bad, as lethargic, as non-competitive, the USMNT looked against T&T.... the hard truth is that it was, at worst, no worse than how the USMNT looked like under Jurgen's non-Donovan GC "run" and how the team looked in the first two games of the Hex.

    I feel no pity for those clowns who staked everything on Jurgen and now, refusing to face the reality of what he wrought, have turned to what is indistinguishable from theological apologetics in the service of the object of their veneration.
     
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  19. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It’s the equivalent of Enron execs saying “we could have turned this around! You’ll be sorry!”
     
  20. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Please just stop with the strawmen and misdirection. This is not about if Klinsmann would have qualified. This is about Arena did not qualify.

    This is about all the absolute nonsense that you and others said about (knowledge of the player pool, tactical, man-management, clear instructions, clear roles, roster selection, putting players in positions to succeed ...). Go back and read your posts. How did that all work out?

    For you to come back and try to blame Klinsmann for the US not qualifying is hypocritical and shameful.
     
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  21. ForceMultiplier1994

    Jul 5, 2016
    Filthadelphia
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How many 30 years-old or older did Bruce Arena have on the field and on the bench in that T&T game?
    He did the EXACT thing that the folks who were so fearful of his coaching this team, did.
    And he relied on "his guys" when the sh!t was on the fire.
    Well he got what he deserved imo, he got burnt by a pathetic Omar Gonzalez while Geoff Cameron rotted on the bench.
     
  22. ForceMultiplier1994

    Jul 5, 2016
    Filthadelphia
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh boy, did I hurt your feelings?
    lets talk it out.
    Im sure you need a hug now too.
     
  23. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    Club: Venezia F.C.
    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hardly huckleberry, I just am going to point out Klinsmann stupid whenever I see it just as i did before. Misinformation and uninformed opinions no place in rational discourse and Ill fight it every chance I see it. Theres about a half dozen of you true believer clowns left on this board and Ill snuff you all out gladly. Its no different than the "Adu will save us" fanbase a few years back, you guys are absolutely no different.

    So I anxiously await the rebuttal..........Landon Donovan over injured aaron johansson, injured mix diskerud, brad davis, and Wondo. I wont get one because you cant........you cannot sincerely say any of those four options are better. Just like you cannot explain JK playing players out of position, in awful formations, with no direction. But hey.......he "shook up the system" well, didnt he? At a coaching level, Juergen will have as much relevance to the history of the program as his son will as a player at the senior level. Steve Sampson was legitimately more useful than Klinsmann, thats how bad he was
     
  24. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    This all seems quite petty (not surprising for this thread). Your going to tirelessly fight to make sure Klinsmann legacy is as negative as it could be, instead of worrying about what is best for our national team. That seems like a real good use of time.

    The fact you can’t see his positives along with negatives makes your opinion on the topic irrelevant. While there may only be a handful of clown believers remaining on here, this place isnt represententive of the fans in this country.

    It is sad that people continue to attack a kid for a possible mistake. It says a lot. As for your assessment of Klinsmann’s place in US soccer history, you couldn’t be more wrong and no amount of ranting on here will change that. As I wrote in the Arena thread the other day, I think there are two tiers of coaches. Milutinovic, Bradley, and Klinsmann are the coaches that successfully got us out of our WC group. Gansler, Sampson, and Arena are the lower tier guys who have significant blemishes on their records by not winning a game at the WC and being elimated in the group stage. In Arena’s case, he is the only coach to fail getting us through the Hex and to the WC.
     
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  25. ForceMultiplier1994

    Jul 5, 2016
    Filthadelphia
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You'll "snuff it out"? Lol
    Yeah ok, good stuff junior.
    I had my issues with Klinsmann actually and his undoing was that he couldn't build a bridge to the players and then deliver his message across it, but what he was TRYING to do is going to become very relevant in the next 4 to 8 years.
    Instead of people listening and absorbing the message of the absolute need for American players to get outside their comfort zones and to get into club situations, mostly abroad, where they were being challenged on a daily basis, he had the core of the team coming back to the MLS and taking bigger paydays to not be challenged and be the big fish in a small pond.
    Bradley, Besler, Guzan, Altidore, Dempsey, oh and Landon Donovan.
    As far as Klinsmann's son, I don't know enough about the kid to say if he's any good or not, but I think you're showing yourself to be a total nancy by suggesting that he won't ever become a player, why because he put something out on social media slamming Donovan?
    C'mon, grow up.
    Arena didn't deliver the goods and he went back to true Bruce Arena form by relying on 30-something MLS'ers, fantastic.
     
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