The Jonathan Gonzalez Thread

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by TheFalseNine, Dec 14, 2017.

  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ???

    National teams and club teams are different.

    Am I missing something? Are you saying the USSF should be monitoring US-eligible players on a constant basis and telling them how to get better? What if the Fed sees the player in one role and the club team in another?

    I know there's a significant coterie who take the position that everything Fed does is stupid because the Fed did it...but this is just silliness.
    Can you provide evidence to support your assertion? To me, you're asking MLS to act in the interest of the USMNT and not their own interest. That never works. Corporations always work in their own interests; that's why we need laws against air pollution. Without those laws, the companies would handle the problem in the cheapest way possible, namely, dump all their poisons into the air we breathe.
     
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  2. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Whatever and why, I don't care. He is not an USMNT player. That is all that matters.
     
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  3. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mexico, Germany, France, Spain, and a few other countries where the federation and professional league partner together to develop players. But something tells me you are not really interested in discussing soccer. Your intent seems to be blasting other posters.
     
  4. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You just made a clear and cogent argument for why we should have real stringent and enforceable conflict of interest statutes between the USSF and MLS/SUM.

    Please in the interests of an actual conversation here, explain how given your assertion that people will always work in their own best interests and given that MLS/SUM are where most of the decision makers within USSF actually earn their paychecks you somehow see this:

    When those of us who are members of said coterie are saying instead that the Fed decisions are stupid for the USSF, because they are clearly motivated by the self interest intertwined with MLS/SUM.

    Essentially, come join us, we have cookies.
     
  5. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you don't care about the analysis part?

    Sounds like this thread is in the right forum and you are in the wrong one.
     
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  6. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Analysis of a Mexican player.
     
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  7. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Analysis of how the USMNT lost a player.
     
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  8. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just to be clear, you are totally cool with regulatory capture?

    The people profiting from the polluting should be the ones running the EPA?

    You cannot have this both ways either MLS should absolutely be in bed with the USSF and as Patrick said, doing everything in it's power to help the federation, as the federation has MLS, or it should GTFO.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    No, National Team coaches shouldn't be giving game analysis. Especially ours! But advice with nutrition, daily living, career, sports psychology, and plans for upcoming camps, who your competition is, who can help mentor. There is a lot of information that can be exchanged.

    It seems like the kids in Europe are doing a lot of this themselves. Having American movie night at Pulisic's house, vacationing together.

    I was only kidding with the buy the Americans in LigaMX thing. However, Americans in LigaMX would be possible YAM targets. But stop it with MLS as an independent business nonsense. MLS is propped up by a massive USSF subsidy. If USSF wants them to do something, they should do it if feasible. Hopefully, within Cordeiro's time, that subsidy is ended and MLS can try and walk on their own. Before then, USSF should expect MLS to help or certainly not hinder.

    However, USSF is owned by MLS. It is a classic case of Regulatory Capture. So, teams will use YAM to bring in young South Americans and bump some young American to USL; who will bump some American journeyman to the real world.
     
  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Germany is an open league, with literally no foreigner restrictions. Mexico I’ll give you. What do the other nations do that would be akin to forcing its clubs to shun foreigners? For one thing, 3 of them are in the EU so it’s literally illegal for them to do so.
     
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  11. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Actually, it is true that corporations only work in their own interest. However, pollution laws really are what let corporations pollute. In essence, if a corporation caused you harm by polluting, you could sue them for damages. If many many people sued, this would be a serious cost. Pollution laws allow a regulated amount of polluting to occur without threat of litigation from the public. That the level of pollution is acceptable to the public, and not the corporation entirely, is because the public votes for the regulators.

    USSF is not voted on by the soccer public at large. Much of the vote is controlled by MLS, as we saw in the last election. All the large blocks which make up almost a majority are controlled by MLS or have a significant MLS presence. The rest of the vote is scattered so willy nilly and could never vote as a block, as to render it meaningless to the outcome.

    In your analogy, it is as if Dow and Dupont owned the whole of the USEPA and a controlling block of Congress. Meanwhile, they were not turning a profit from chemical sales at all, but only on their overvalued military contracts handed out by their puppet Congress.

    That was fun...back to Gonzales.
     
  12. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Well, England has the work permit thing. Does a very good job of stopping many non-EU players from playing.

    But then, who is asking anyone to shun anyone? I think all anyone has ever asked is that MLS not create rules that hurt the American player. That the top tier domestic league in the USA, just give Americans an equal chance at playing time.
     
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  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’m normally not a fan of argument by meme, but this one is pretty good.

    Let’s be frank here...most of the time, the interests of the Fed and MLS are going to align, so long as we exclude women (which is half of the Fed’s job) and the caliber of players my kids are (never going pro.). But here’s one way to look at it...when was the last time the Fed made a decision that pissed off MLS? The closest I can think of is how the Fed reacted to some of Jurgen’s statements about MLS, but even that doesn’t really fit.

    I don’t know enough about the relationship between the federations in other nations and the top league in those nations, except for Mexico, to make a comparison. And I think a fair minded analysis would agree that the conflicts are worse in Mexico.

    Here’s a question to throw out there (albeit inappropriately in a JoGo thread, but here we are)...given the ever growing power of clubs, is an incestuous relationship between the top league and the federation just inevitable? Within the confines of economic reality and FIFA’s “no government interference” mandate, how can things change for the better? There’s an unspoken assertion in this thread (and many others) that the Fed is screwing up because it’s too close to MLS...but is it something the Fed is really doing wrong, or is it just the way things are nowadays?

    Let me throw this out there...MLS should adopt a rule allowing an 8th bench player so long as that player is 18 or younger (and not a keeper.). In such cases, that 8th player will likely get game action any time the game is 3-0. I don’t fault SKC for not starting EPB more...Opara and Besler were great last year. But an extra bench slot set aside for a kid at least makes him available.

    Or what about allowing a 4th sub so long as that 4th sub is 18 or younger?

    Anyway, when push comes to shove, I just think American coaching isn’t good enough, and the only cure for that is time. That’s the development issue we most need to solve. Not MLS teams using TAM and so forth to bring in South American teenagers.
     
  14. FeedhimtothepigsArold

    Apr 7, 2014
    Club:
    Oxford United FC
    They should close the thread if they dont want us to analyze.
     
  15. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree with you on both points here and I would not have resorted to it if it did not communicate exactly what I was trying to say better and more efficiently than I could.

    I completely and unequivocally disagree with the bolded portion. Although it may be true that mutual interest often aligns and I am absolutely willing to entertain, even concede entirely, that the need to launch a successful domestic league was in everyone's best interest and probably necessitated the kind of incestuous relationship that was built initially, that is absolutely not the case now and there are real, consequential and serious fissures where those interests are divergent and furthermore those fissures absolutely contributed to, if not caused our complete and catastrophic failure in qualifying, an event which would cause heads to roll at any federation where job one was the national team success and not the domestic league success.

    The rest of that paragraph if I read it correctly I agree with, the fed has not and will not make any decisions that piss off MLS, because the people that make up the core decision making body of the fed work for MLS. Even when a dissenting voice like Jurgen's (he is an idiot, I am not a fan), raises a small point like the calendar, or questions the league or whatever, he gets shouted down, including by the "media" many of whom are either employed directly by MLS, or are reliant on them for access on both the MLS and national team fronts.

    Mexico is a mess, but I am not sure it is worse than ours from a federation perspective, they are going to the World Cup and vis-a-vis this thread stole a good young player from us. Regardless, I think going down the moral equivalency path is a dead end. For every Mexico, there is an example like Belgium or Iceland, where a strong federation with a plan is dictating to the domestic league, not the other way around.

    A close working relationship with both cooperation and conflict is inevitable, but that is more an argument FOR stringent bylaws and some form of actual conflict of interest safeguards, rather than an argument against.

    And no, this is absolutely not "the way things are", or an arrangement that any other federation operates under, it is Chuck Blazerish:

    https://www.si.com/soccer/2017/11/01/nasl-us-soccer-hearing-court-ruling-kessler-sum-mls

    “They have this unique relationship, again, unlike any other federation in the world, where they view MLS's interest as being the same as their interest …. [and] in order for the USSF to make more money, MLS must make more money. They have tied themselves economically together,” he said.

    Kessler continued, “When we finally got their agreement, despite what their economist says, the way the agreement works, for them to get their 70/30 split, a certain amount of revenues have to first be hit. There's a target above the minimum. The only way that can be hit is if MLS is popular enough to draw in enough money so they hit their target, and then, above that, they get that split. If MLS is weaker, if they are not as attractive to TV, if they are not as attractive to sponsors, that number is very, very hard to hit.”


    I don't disagree with you in regard to the symptom ailing us, shit coaches. I absolutely disagree with you that the cure is time alone. The cure is an open and competitive league and federation, with player freedom, where innovation, creativity and youth development are all properly rewarded through an open and competitive system. What we have instead is a closed, insular protectorate where all the clubs, players and federation are in one cohesive central planning system and that system is full of old, tired and calcified ideas. Yes there is progress, but most of that is despite, not because of, this unethical and incestuous relationship between USSF/SUM/MLS.

    One man's opinion anyway.
     
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  16. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. A quote from Kessler, given his role, isn't the most compelling evidence I've ever seen. ;)
    2. The part of your post that I clipped is incredibly vague, so vague I don't know the types of changes you would support. Unless it's a plea for pro/rel. Which, God, I hope not.

    One other thing I'd point out...what is the difference between Iceland, which you praise, and a system where "all the clubs, players and federation are in one cohesive central planning system." My best interpretation of your thoughts here is that you're OK with the basic model. You just think the execution sucks.

    Am I being fair?
     
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  17. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Why not change the thread title to, "Losing Jonathan Gonzales and others like him". Would that make everyone happy?
     
  18. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thank you for engaging and yes, that all seems fair.

    1. For the Kessler part, if not for him and the NASL lawsuit, the little we discovered about the actual numbers behind the relationship between USSF/SUM/MLS would still be shrouded in mystery and what is important to our discussion are the facts that were uncovered, not who uncovered them. SUM negotiates ALL soccer broadcasting in the US, SUM is owned by MLS, SUM handles all USSF TV rights, there is 70/30 Split after a still shrouded in mystery, guaranteed minimum for those USSF rights. Principles, particularly within the decision making body of USSF have and had significant ties to both MLS and SUM directly.

    There are plenty of other sources attesting to the bizarrely close relationship between the MLS/SUM/USSF, here is Garber for example:

    [U.S. Soccer’s] Sunil [Gulati] and Dan [Flynn] had this view that as the governing body of the sport they would make commitments on the commercial side and on the competitive side to have MLS be the leader of the sport. That’s not something that exists in other parts of the world. I believe that Sunil could have made a different decision when he came in as president [in 2006], and had he made that decision MLS isn’t what it is today. Because we are joined at the hip.”

    https://www.si.com/soccer/2018/01/25/sum-soccer-united-marketing-garber-gulati-carter

    Again your earlier point that I was addressing with the Kessler quote was:

    The answer, which Garber's own words attest to, is no. This type of incestuous relationship between a federation and the league is unique. Some, (like Garber lol), can make a case for it somehow being beneficial, but obfustication along the lines of "Mexico does it", "is this just the way things work", is lazy and inaccurate and no substitute for actually making a case for why this unorthodox and highly questionable arrangement is the preferred way of doing it.

    2. The vagueness: Totally not a pro/rel virtue signal. The vagueness is not my fault or my problem. The vagueness is entirely due to the opaque nature of all of these incestual relationships between USSF/SUM/MLS/CONCACAF/FIFA and myriad other bodies and boards and their complete resistance to any attempts at transparency. If I had a better idea what was going on, I could give you a better alternative. I just know that in my opinion the current setup looks sketchy and the results (from a USSF perspective) are hot garbage.

    What I am saying is that they are all tied too closely together and need to be broken up, or at least implement real, enforceable and transparent conflict of interest policies. For example, here is how MLS works; love or hate this structure, it is clearly top down central planning:

    https://medium.com/@isaac_krasny/unpacking-the-major-league-soccer-business-model-827f4b784bcd

    That central planning body that is MLS directly owns and controls SUM and "indirectly" influences USSF to the point that I feel comfortable calling it control. Ergo, one central planning apparatus, made up of a handful of people across those organisations are calling the shots for our federation and I believe that we would be better served by more independent entities across the board.

    Their ideas may be fantastic for growing revenue for themselves and building a domestic soccer league. But their actual soccer ideas as evidenced by our federation and the results of our US men's national team are shit.

    Again I was addressing your points, specifically that our coaching sucks, which you agree with. Well, our coaching top to bottom within the federation is built on, for and by, MLS coaches, MLS philosophies and with MLS people. Our chief scout was Thomas Rongen, WTF. To the point of this thread, those people and those ideas completely screwed up, lied and lost us a good young prospect.

    This then leads to my point with Iceland and Belgium, which is not that I prefer those systems in a vacuum, I would as stated prefer breaking these entities up and having them control and compete for themselves based on their own priorities, which would often mean cooperation, but would also mean conflict.

    I brought up Iceland and Belgium however, because in those cases the Federation is the top dog and is dictating to the leagues, not the tail wagging the dog scenario that we have here. So no I don't support the central planning method, but even if I did I would not support our structure from a USSF/USMNT perspective, because the way we are doing it is backasswards.

    Finally if anyone stuck with me this long, here is a very simple piece on conflicts of interest and why I think it would be beneficial and completely feasible to at least mitigate all this with some simple common sense solutions:

    http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=973

    To improve its governance, US Soccer should undergo a high-level, independent evaluation of the relationship of US Soccer, MLS and SUM. Such evaluation will no doubt be strongly resisted because in many respects US Soccer, MLS and SUM are one and the same. However, the mixing of business interests and non-profit sports governance is a recipe for disaster, as we have seen repeatedly in the soccer world in recent years. The business and non-profit functions currently under the umbrella of US Soccer should be clearly separated into completely separate organizations.
     
  19. Alexisonfire

    Alexisonfire Member

    Jun 30, 2009
    NorCal
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://www.espn.com/soccer/mexico/s...lt-like-i-turned-my-back-on-the-united-states

    Mexico's Jonathan Gonzalez: I felt like I turned my back on the United States

    Former United States youth international Jonathan Gonzalez says his switch to Mexico felt like he was turning his back on the U.S., but insists that playing for El Tri now "feels like home."

    "It's not easy knowing that I always saw myself as playing in the U.S.," Gonzalez told JUGOtv. "But now that I'm in Mexico, I feel like I'm pretty much home."

    Gonzalez, 19, controversially made a one-time switch to play for Mexico's national team in January, despite coming up through U.S. Soccer's ranks at youth level.

    The Monterrey midfielder was a part of the U.S. setup from under-14 to under-20 levels. He featured three times for the U17s back in 2014 but had never made a senior appearance despite enjoying a breakout season with the Liga MX club last year.

    Gonzalez had long stated his desire to play for the U.S., but after the Americans' failure to qualify for the 2018 World Cup, the Mexican federation persuaded him into switching allegiances, which a player can do once under a FIFA rule for players who have yet to make a senior national team appearance in a competitive game.

    The California-born Gonzalez, who qualified for Mexico through his father, added that the reversal came at an emotional cost.

    "Your father going to the U.S. in search of a better life. And you're just pretty much turning your back and coming back over here to Mexico," said the Monterrey youth product, who said he felt Mexico presented "more opportunities" for him.

    Despite the home feel that playing for Mexico brings, he said he is still adjusting to sporting El Tri colors in the U.S.

    "It's a little bit weird wearing the jersey over there in the U.S. because when I was younger I would be in the U.S. national team," he said. "And now that I'm with the Mexican national team in the United States, it's a little bit different."

    Upon the switch, reports circulated that he'd been promised a spot in Mexico's World Cup team. However, Mexico later refuted those claims and ultimately did not include Gonzalez in its final 23-man squad headed for the tournament in Russia.

    Instead, Gonzalez is with the U21s in France, where he has helped lead the team to the final of the prestigious Toulon Tournament. And he described the steep transition between junior and senior squads.

    "The transition from youth football to the senior national team is something that wasn't easy, to be honest," he said. "I was not used to the style of play, the hierarchy of the players, the experience they have, but I mean it's been great for me."
     
  20. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    He and Rossi can commiserate in their old age.
     
  21. Salmos

    Salmos Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 26, 2010
    Berkeley, CA
    Club:
    Pachuca CF
    He’s playing the final of the Toulon tournament with Mexico in a couple of days. I think all dual nationals feel some form of guilt when they do a one time switch.
     
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  22. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    Why I mentioned Rossi.
    http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/guis...be-nearing-its-end/13leofxqvaads1tubm28hxxtm2
     
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  23. smokarz

    smokarz Member+

    Aug 9, 2006
    Hartford, CT
    The US had moved on, a long time ago. If there's any regrets, it's with the player.
     
  24. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    He and any journalists in this story should drop it. He should talk to Mexico about how committed he is to them because that's what he's got going forward, there is no other door.

    For us, any relevance to him should be 100% purely based on fixing the problems that contributed to him leaving: Lack of communication and support, having the clown car in control of insuring dual nationals stay committed to the US instead of actual intelligent professionals that won't lie to the media to CYA etc.

    It's still relevant, but only in the sense of what was, and probably still is broken and that Earnie and the idiots in charge behind him must fix. His feelings are irrelevent except in what we can glean/learn from them behind the scenes and put to good use going forward to insure this happens only when there was absolutely no other thing the fed could do or not do to avoid it. Clearly in this particular case there were things that could have been done that weren't etc.
     
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  25. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only clearly positive thing for me over the last 8 months or so is that it appears, (and I say appears because the USSF specializes in opaque and vague statements and no accountability), that the function of contacting, tracking and communicating with players in the pool was Thomas Rongen's remit and it is now Ernie Stewart's.

    If so, HUGE step in the right direction.
     

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