The Independent 100 greatest players of this century

"This week at The Independent we have been counting down through the 100 greatest players of the 21st century.

We asked ten of our football writers to identify the 50 greatest players of the past two decades, with each player assigned a number of points determined by their rank, before an overall list was then worked out.

In voting for the greatest players of the 21st century, our team of ten considered a few broad factors: a player’s ability and the actual application of that ability; the consistency of that application; the level they reached; their influence on the competition and – of course – their level of achievement."


There is also a podcast (I listened it in the morning and it is good; I can recommend it to anyone and listen carefully):

The latest @IndyFootball pod, on our #TheCentury countdown https://t.co/munbXFy2Mx@lukedbrown is joined by me, @TonyEvans92a and @benburrows_

Including:
A Tony rant about Scholes
How Totti/Pirlo became shorthand for people who don’t know much to pretend
Greatest current star

— Miguel Delaney (@MiguelDelaney) October 16, 2019

And for many players there is a long profile as well:
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...-players-countdown-nobodys-hero-a9159381.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...t-players-century-100-countdown-a9157841.html


The ones who have seen my attempts for the decade and since 1994 know I don't fully agree but here it is below.


100. Yaya Toure (Ivory Coast)
99. Harry Kane (England)
98. Daniele de Rossi (Italy)
97. Bastian Schweinsteiger (Germany)
96. Vincent Kompany (Belgium)
95. Karim Benzema (France)
94. Sol Campbell (England)
93. Pepe (Portugal)
92. Edwin van der Sar (Netherlands)
91. Arturo Vidal (Chile)
90. Angel di Maria (Argentina)
89. Diego Forlan (Uruguay)
88. Radamel Falcao (Colombia)
87. Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang (Gabon)
86. Robin van Persie (Netherlands)
85. Carlos Tevez (Argentina)
84. Gaizka Mendieta (Spain)
83. Virgil van Dijk (Netherlands)
82. Hernan Crespo (Argentina)
81. Rio Ferdinand (England)
80. Toni Kroos (Germany)
79. Juan Roman Riquelme (Argentina)
78. Thomas Muller (Germany)
77. Mohamed Salah (Egypt)
76. Diego Godin (Uruguay)
75. David Silva (Spain)
74. Eden Hazard (Belgium)
73. Cesc Fabregas (Spain)
72. Deco (Portugal)
71. Lilian Thuram (France)
70. Nemanja Vidic (Serbia)
69. Marcelo (Brazil)
68. Ryan Giggs (Wales)
67. Antoine Griezmann (France)
66. Clarence Seedorf (Netherlands)
65. Wesley Sneijder (Netherlands)
64. Gabriel Batistuta (Argentina)
63. Fernando Torres (Spain)
62. Ruud van Nistelrooij (Netherlands)
61. Claude Makelele (France)
60. Sergio Aguero (Argentina)
59. Cafu (Brazil)
58. Miroslav Klose (Germany)
57. Kevin de Bruyne (Belgium)
56. Henrik Larsson (Sweden)
55. Xabi Alonso (Spain)
54. Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands)
53. Gareth Bale (Wales)
52. Gerard Pique (Spain)
51. Robert Lewandowski (Poland)
50. Javier Zanetti (Argentina)
49. Didier Drogba (Ivory Coast)
48. Michael Ballack (Germany)
47. Oliver Kahn (Germany)
46. Ashley Cole (England)
45. Pavel Nedved (Czech Republic)
44. N'Golo Kante (France)
43. Kylian Mbappe (France)
42. Alessandro Del Piero (Italy)
41. Alessandro Nesta (Italy)
40. Patrick Vieira (France)
39. Zlatan Ibrahimovic (Sweden)
38. Roberto Carlos (Brazil)
37. Rivaldo (Brazil)
36. Roy Keane (Ireland)
35. John Terry (England)
34. Paul Scholes (England)
33. David Villa (Spain)
32. Iker Casillas (Spain)
31. Francesco Totti (Italy)
30. Arjen Robben (Netherlands)
29. Wayne Rooney (England)
28. Raul Gonzalez (Spain)
27. Manuel Neuer (Germany)
26. Paolo Maldini (Italy)
25. Dani Alves (Brazil)
24. Carles Puyol (Spain)
23. Frank Lampard (England)
22. Luka Modric (Croatia)
21. Samuel Eto'o (Cameroon)
20. Neymar (Brazil)
19. Andrei Shevchenko (Ukraine)
18. Steven Gerrard (England)
17. Sergio Busquets (Spain)
16. Luis Suarez (Uruguay)
15. Luis Figo (Portugal)
14. Philipp Lahm (Germany)
13. Gianluigi Buffon (Italy)
12. Sergio Ramos (Spain)
11. Andrea Pirlo (Italy)
10. Fabio Cannavaro (Italy)
9. Kaka (Brazil)
8. Zinedine Zidane (France)
7. Thierry Henry (France)
6. Ronaldo (Brazil)
5. Andres Iniesta (Spain)
4. Ronaldinho (Brazil)
3. Xavi Hernandez (Spain)
2. Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal)
1. Lionel Messi (Argentina)


Compared to the FourFourTwo list (which is from September 1994 onward, not 2000) several players drop out. Baggio, Cantona, Romario, Beckham, Davids, Schmeichel, Sammer, Shearer, Desailly, Hagi, Veron, Stoichkov, Owen, Vieri, Trezeguet, Klinsmann, Zola, Ribery, Inzaghi, Suker, Hierro, Adams, Gascoigne, Weah and Le Tissier all disappear.

Of the players who are not in FFT their list the French trio Kante, Mbappe and Griezmann are funnily the three highest new entries. Mbappe did feature however in this top 50 revision (honorable mention).

Just as FourFourTwo again no Dutch player in the top 30 (and no Belgian in top 50), literally below any other football nation worth their salt (except Chile) so for me the conspiracy is real (the last 20 years downward trend). The conscious and subconscious gravitational forces going against us exist.

 

Yeah that is one of those things.

Aguero is mentioned in the podcast, and also that 20 league goals per season for great Man City teams isn't an awful lot. If you exclude the penalties, he broke the 20 goals barrier only once in his career (2014-15). You can add to this his relative lack of national team exploits (in tournaments, vs the big teams) and his Champions League exploits (until last season it was sub-par, in KO stages at least).

I might be biased but Van Nistelrooij and arguably Van Persie did more for their national teams and in the big CL games like vs peak level Barcelona or Klopp's Dortmund who recognized his overall ability and positional sense (esp. considering it was for Arsenal). Same applies to some other strikers in the list.

I'd never have Mbappe above Lewandowski right now, however Mbappe his personal achievements before he was 20 stack up well against anyone in modern history. He is the teenager with the most Champions League goals (surpassing Kluivert), he scored in a World Cup final (the 2nd teenager after Pelé).

Although the French league isn't the best, he helped to break the PSG monopoly in 2017, before his market value entered the stratospheric territories. There was a good article on this here when he turned 20 - ofc Mbappe played/plays for good teams but so did Ronaldo, Pelé and Mardona when they entered the scene.

I don't think Batistuta contributed enough past 2000 to be in here. He had one good season in 2000-01 with 19 non-penalty goals in 31 competitive games (still the most expensive 30+ years old player ever I think?) and was then done from a scoring perspective with his overall game and impact not good enough I think.

 

Breakdown by country:

14 - Spain (highest rank #3 Xavi)
9 - Brazil (highest rank #4 Ronaldinho)
9 - England (highest rank #18 Gerrard)
9 - France (highest rank #7 Henry)
8 - Argentina (highest rank #1 Messi)
8 - Germany (highest rank #14 Lahm)
8 - Italy (highest rank #10 Cannavaro)
8 - Netherlands (highest rank #30 Robben)
4 - Portugal (highest rank #2 Cristiano)
3 - Belgium (highest rank #57 De Bruyne)
3 - Uruguay (highest rank #16 Suarez)
2 - Ivory Coast (highest rank #49 Drogba)
2 - Sweden (highest rank #39 Ibrahimovic)
2 - Wales (highest rank #53 Bale)
1 - Cameroon (highest rank #21 Eto'o)
1 - Chile (highest rank #91 Vidal)
1 - Colombia (highest rank #88 Falcao)
1 - Croatia (highest rank #22 Modric)
1 - Czech Republic (highest rank #45 Nedved)
1 - Egypt (highest rank #77 Salah)
1 - Gabon (highest rank #87 Aubameyang)
1 - Ireland (highest rank #36 Keane)
1 - Poland (highest rank #51 Lewandowski)
1 - Serbia (highest rank #70 Vidic)
1 - Ukraine (highest rank #19 Shevchenko)

 

Here I think they are on the right track in the way also Maldini is much lower than for example the FFT attempt, Zidane gets below Henry, and Bergkamp is 24 places lower as the FFT list. Cafu is much lower than his usual place vs competing full-backs as well. It can be calibrated better yes (Batistuta, Mendieta arguably), but the general idea is good.

I don't think Bergkamp should be ahead of De Bruyne, Hazard or Seedorf here. Seedorf has an underwhelming NT career however he was relatively good at euro 2004 (included in a few tournament XIs) - kicker rated him among the five stand-out midfielders - and has also his good games in 2003 vs Argentina for instance and the prestige game vs Germany in 2002. He remains the youngest player with 50 caps. It's by no means better than Bergkamp his contribution (an impressive amount of quality goals and assists vs elite teams) but the latter was retired for national team duty at this point.

Here a fantastic article on him (by Rob Smyth of the Irish Times and Guardian).

"Dennis Bergkamp is rarely ranked among the 10 or 20 greatest players of all time. Last year, when World Soccer asked 73 journalists, managers and former players to select their all-time XI, Bergkamp did not get a single vote. He never won the Ballon d’Or (though he did finish second in 1993). Yet he will endure, and with good reason."


Nevertheless, he still has his contribution and achievements in this century.

- Two championships and four 2nd places in a top three league, maybe already top two league. In his very last season Arsenal ended 4th but that's precisely the season he wasn't a starter any more (Vieira had also left). Played in all the four FA Cup finals, winning two. Losing one on penalties (he didn't miss).
- Two continental finals. For the 2006 final his playing minutes were minimized but had still sporadic decisive moments like that important injury time winner, important for progressing and important for progressing as group winner.
- The 'Independent' mentions his great assist vs Juventus, but of course we can also mention the great goal vs eventual finalists Leverkusen, the goal and performance vs champions Dortmund (for which he received a 1/6 by kicker), the fantastically weighted nutmeg assist vs Nesta's Lazio. To name just four examples (assist vs Celta in the KO rounds...).
- His true contribution is visible in the European matches he didn't play, and also the fact he's unbeaten in the six away matches for Arsenal he played (including in the Camp Nou vs Barcelona). With him it is 27W, 15D, 5L. Without him it is 15W, 11D, 20L for Arsenal. That says quite a bit.
- In terms of narrow assists and goals he was still doing fairly well (five seasons with 15+ assists) especially considering the lack of penalties and set piece taking. For making unlocking pre-assists he was clearly excellent as well (in 2003-04 he had more that way than direct assists).
- Still a couple 'player of the month' and 'goal of the month' recognitions.


So I think he shouldn't be higher than Hazard, De Bruyne or Seedorf, but there is still a decent case for making the top 100 I think. Van Persie possibly has to be ahead as well (topping the 'FinkTank' 2003-2017 ranking for the Premier League, his various goals against elite teams at major tournaments andsoforth).


I did a further search on the Jurgen Klopp thing:

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

From the UEFA website:

"But Robin van Persie, wow, what a performance, what a player. He's certainly one of the best in Europe. I've hardly ever seen a player who plays so deep in midfield and then is such a danger in the box."

"If I have a share in the success, I also have a great share in the failure at European level. But we have all learned. Personally, when we played against Arsenal in London, I saw the best forward ever: Robin van Persie. I didn't know a player could play three positions during 90 minutes. It was a great experience – and we want to use that now."

---
Van Persie himself:

“Jurgen Klopp has given me the nicest of compliments, saying ‘as coach on the sidelines I’ve never seen a player playing in three positions in the same match,” the ex-footballer told Voetbal International. “I fell back in the game, went on the wings, was in front,” Van Persie reminisced. “The team adapted to my style [in this match], they played for me, so that’s the only reason I scored the goals and delivered an outstanding performance against the later finalist.”

 

Since the write-ups mention Thuram winning euro 2000, and Nesta becoming 'defender of the year' in 2000 I think the cut off is 1 January 2000. It doesn't mention Thuram winning the World Cup for instance, or Maldini winning the Serie A in 1999.

Speaking of this, you can make a case Van Nistelrooij (two-and-a-half months older as Ronaldo) should be around the region of Ronaldo, or perhaps even higher for this century. This is also true for other strikers as Lewandowski and co.

Van Nistelrooij scored more Champions League goals than anyone in the 2000s decade, more often topscorer than anyone. At the time only Gerd Muller was more often topscorer than him, someone - as good as he was - who shared this two campaigns with someone else (1975, 1977) and in 1977 scored all his goals against Banik and Koge.

Furthermore, Van Nistelrooij was also 'competing' for the top assister of the Champions League in a few campaigns (he was both the top scorer and top assister in 2002). Van Nistelrooij was topscorer in three different leagues from 2000 onward. All these three leagues were top five in the UEFA ranking when it happened.

He didn't win the World Cup no, but still has his important and decisive goals against Germany, Italy, Czech Republic and Ivory Coast at major tournaments, or supercharged Russia in the quarter finals (Ivory Coast was runner-up in the Africa Cup, losing on penalties against hosts Egypt; this was the 2006 'group of death').

Yet typically, it doesn't register. By BigSoccer users he was widely ignored and received only one vote for a 2000s team (as only Benelux player). So ultimately it doesn't matter how many goals you score (Van Nistelrooij) or Champions League finals you play with actual production and technical ability (Seedorf), it will be ignored anyway.

Needless to say, this small market status also gives FIFA and UEFA leverage to shaft 'Holland' with consistently tough draws, unfavorable hotel locations and more of this stuff.

 

What comes after the but?

Yes I agree with this - see also my DB10 comment above (though Actim/OPTA Index continued to rate him fine until the winter of 2004-05 amidst other things).

Another thing is what they take into account before players join the biggest teams.

For Sol Campbell I have the feeling they think of what he did for a 'poor' Tottenham. A while ago I calculated/researched whether he made a factual difference for them, for a team ranked 10th-14th, but wasn't taken away.

Meanwhile, for Salah and Van Dijk (as influential as he is, and playing more minutes than any other Liverpool player, while Klopp said to Wijnaldum beforehand he wouldn't play the full match) it seems they only think of their Liverpool selves, and if that is the case a place in the top 100 is very much arguable.

Personally I'd also think of what Salah did for Fiorentina and Roma (as argued in the other thread - e.g. a clear and undeniable upward effect for both teams there, Roma reached a record points haul, Fiorentina climbing from mid-table to CL places in the half season he was there) and what Van Dijk did for Southampton with a clear and big influence - 40% vs 20% win percentage - but doubt to what extent they do this for both players. At a stretch you can even think of his CL games for Celtic and the record 1256 minutes clean sheet run, and of course the difference (or not) both made for their national side.

This is also a question mark for N'Golo Kante and others, what to do with that.

Axing David Beckham - compared to FFT - looks as an error to me, even though his finest hour was maybe one year before. To me and the 'experts' of the low countries he is one of the most individually accomplished English footballers of the past 25 years, if you just think away all the hoopla and all the pompous accolades. He was 25 years old at the start of this millennium.

edit: I don't think it is necessary to lay out his individual mettle, but if necessary it can be done.

 

I've listened to this part again now.

Yes clearly the comment by someone he was at his best before the millennium is wrong. That says maybe as much about the broadcasting (and viewing) of the league as Totti his actual form.

If one looks at Totti his delivery against the big boys of his own league (Juve, Inter, Milan) then evidently this is also more located past the millennium than before.

They do place him ahead of Del Piero in the end while for full career it is possibly/probably the other way around, given things as his Champions League achievements and his semi final goal vs Germany in the World Cup (that's also my personal opinion/assessment, unlike FFT).

Both have a maligned national team career with only three tournament goals each in a number of attempts and tries, from an individual perspective, but the edge goes to ADP if I have to make a choice (the 1997 TDF, the 2006 semi final contribution).

 

I know this will possibly land on deaf ears but I don't think Neymar is penalized for playing with Messi. He is penalized for the following:


- Many have still the image of Ronaldinho his magical ability, and also a handful moments there (the Chelsea toe poke, the Milan left footed thunderbolt etc.). For Neymar this is simply a bit less the case. The glow around Ronaldinho is more important than his relative lack of non-penalty CL goals (only 11) and World Cup goals (only 2).

103 - Ronaldinho is the third Brazilian player with the most goals+assists in La Liga in the 21st century (69 goals and 34 assists), after Dani Alves (25 and 101) and Neymar (68 and 38). Smile. pic.twitter.com/OSmUkFeJmk

— OptaJose (@OptaJose) January 17, 2018

(this number includes 22 penalty goals, as well as a number of set piece assists)

- The defining idea of Ronaldinho is the joy he emitted. The careless way of playing (this is in The Independent but also the FFT articles, including the special issue with 'Perfect XIs'). Neymar his image has more dents in the sense of rolling around, quarreling with team-mates about the penalty taking, other alleged prima donna behavior and Copa America meltdowns (2015). Ronaldinho his partying maybe takes focus and attention away from other possible points of critique.

- Ronaldinho was the main star of a Champions League winning campaign. Neymar was topscorer yes, but many of those goals came with the game or tie already settled (much more so than Suarez and Messi his goals) and by the OPTA stats it is also clear he had a more limited role than Ronaldinho had or Neymar himself in other years (a blank 0 assists in the CL for example).

- Playing in Ligue 1 will always have a limited registration unless you turn up big time in the Champions League and/or tournaments. Now clearly he hasn't been poor there, but he hasn't made it his own either when the stakes increased and/or the big teams arrived in the World Cup. He received mixed reviews for his Real Madrid performance in 2018 (individually not bad, but not great awareness for his team-mates and opponents) and didn't play in 2019.

- Luis Suarez has at least two campaigns in a big league that he made his own. 2013-14 for Liverpool and 2015-16 for Barcelona. I don't think the same idea exists for Neymar, fairly or unfairly. Plus, Suarez has that 2014 England game (half-injured) and the 2011 Copa America even if he didn't always shine.

- It is regularly claimed (by Jonathan Wilson for instance, but also Tim Vickery) that Neymar is a tactical liability. This can be said about Ronaldinho too, but he is evidently the symbol of Barcelona's resurgence and rise from the ashes so that makes the point and general feeling hollow.


Nevertheless, the (big data driven, psychological) marketing is so strong around Neymar, and his physical and technical package so dominant, that he still finishes 20th. There is a credible case he has to be ahead of Kaka overall.

 

Okay thanks

Yes, one might well think some inflation has taken place (also below Messi and Ronaldo) but only two topscorer titles of any type this century tells part of the story. That is well below other strikers of his generation.

Not sure where I would have him. There are still some things going in his favor, even next to Zidane.

 

Yes indeed. What I meant with the things in his favor vs Zidane is Ronaldo was arguably still the more impactful player for as long as it lasted. Not for the special moments, but over a whole season. His GI rating is significantly higher (comparing to team-mates like Zidane and others of his league) and we can also see with the naked eye Real Madrid's 2003-04 implosion when he got injured (with some other goalscorers available).

Overall I'd say he had one excellent tournament, two world class seasons and years, one borderline world class season this millennium (2004-05 is borderline; goals were down and his mobility/dribbling compared to 2002-03).

Before the millennium he had both more quantity and quality in tournaments and seasons, with also more delivery at continental level for the club. When 'Voetbal International' placed him so high in 2017 they were also thinking of what he did for Cruzeiro (vs Boca Juniors for example) and his promise as 17 years old he would score 30 goals for PSV... which he did (though when that was done he downplayed it by pointing to Nilis his help).

That's evidently shown by ESM and Ballon d'Or among others, despite Del Piero playing for the bigger team.

That said, Del Piero had even this millennium twice as many goals for the national side (and non-penalty goals) and almost twice as many non-penalty goals in the Champions League, despite his shorter career this century (had his last goal in 2008-09 while Totti had his last goal in 2014-15, becoming the oldest CL goalscorer).

Although Totti was of course more of a player who made his side tick, and set the train in motion in visible and invisible ways, more so than his non-penalty goals and open play assists would suggest at first sight.

 

There are seven team-mates of Messi in the top 20. So as much as he monopolizes the best scoring positions and such, it is still possible to shine. All those seven are creative players (even Busquets is not a Puyol in this).

The thing with Ronaldinho is he was often peripheral to what Barcelona did, with Deco and Eto'o found more often. He was a focal point in media attention, not necessarily in the way the game went through him or he got the best shot and assist positions. Ronaldinho was only to a certain extent the referent or the creative center, as you call it.

We don't say Eto'o took glory away from him, or Deco his relentless creative and pressing game (one assist every fourth game), often finding himself in the best assist positions, placed Ronaldinho in the shadow.

What 'negative marketing' of Neymar? What is the origin of it? By whom?