A very nice and cool article from TheSoccerObserver about Hamish Law a Scotsman playing for Pitt. They took the opportunity of the big (no... huge) independence referendum day in Scotland to publish an interview of Hamish. Two extracts to tempt you to read the full article? What’s the biggest difference between soccer here and back home? The athleticism of everyone. I was fit back home, but they are men out here. They’re physically fit in every aspect. Strength. Speed. It’s the physical attributes of the players. They’re just much bigger. What’s surprised you most about the United States? How big it is. You hear about it, but you don’t realize it until you’re here. We’ve been traveling up to seven hours on a bus to go to games. That’s almost as long as it takes to fly from Scotland to Pittsburgh. We flew to play the University of North Carolina last week. Flew. I couldn’t have imagined flying to play a game in your own country. This feeling about how things are big in USA is often said by visitors. And for Hamish it extends to players! http://thesoccerobserver.com/2014/09/18/stateside-scots-hamish-law-university-of-pittsburgh-forward/ Hamish is a freshman born in 1996, playing forward (and not tall...) http://www.pittsburghpanthers.com/sports/m-soccer/mtt/hamish_law_912053.html
Jack Harrison’s U.S. Soccer Path Started With a Choice in England by His Mother I thought this article is pretty apropos for this forum. So I figured I'd link it to a thread on the subject I started back in the day when there was a little less twitter and snap chat and a little more discussion. As I wrote a few years ago Debbie Harrison is the type of parent I was thinking about when I was writing about in the thread. There is still a bias against US, in part because there is little experience and in part because it goes against the established system. But world soccer is extremely competitive and as a result the bias has started to break down at an increasing pace. As this happens, I feel college soccer will start to resemble college baseball and hockey where extremely talented players choose to hedge their bets and start their careers in college - only on a more global level as soccer is much more of a global sport. In the most recent draft you had Buescher - (Member of the U-16 and U-18 German national teams ... Named the top midfield player in the U-19 German Bundesliga in 2011-12. ) and Endoh (left his family at age 12 to move to Fukushima, Japan, where he formed part of the first class of players at the Japanese Football Association (JFA) Academy, an elite residential program founded to develop the country's top talent). While US college soccer always had foreign influence, the foreign players that came in weren't youth national team level players from world cup level countries. Some excerpts from the times article
Was going to comment on that as well. Here is an update of the foreign players on the basket of teams around the country my kid was looking at going to back in the day. Huge increase over the past 3 years in the ACC schools he was looking at. I think foreign players are certainly impacting balance of power. Though one of the schools he was considering - Syracuse is a perfect example how foreign players can level the playing field against the tradition power house programs. At this point the Mid-America and American East conference had a higher conference rating in Massey than the Big 10. I haven't looked at the rosters, but I doubt they are doing it with American kids. Conf#07Int07Can13Int13Can16Int16CanACC7171203434Big 10621112114Big West551190221Ivy684140133Pac-1251273122WCC430110140D21100010Other D16221315416Total4059101131315720
I'll throw this item here (even if it is D-II), but something that I've seen commented on a few times: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources...committee-reviews-organized-competition-rules "...that committee discussed what some members perceived as a growing trend: Student-athletes who enroll at a college only to withdraw after one or two semesters in order to play soccer with a competitive outside amateur league, then enroll at Division II institutions with more experience and at no cost to their college eligibility. Members of the Men’s Soccer Committee believe some of the student-athletes who take this route travel overseas to play high-level amateur soccer and, when they come to Division II, are older and stronger than most of their peers."
I think every level should limit the foreign players on the roster. If "we" (or the MLS/ USSSF) are going to use College soccer as another avenue to "produce" pro or national team players, then we shouldn't have 18 foreign players on a roster at D1 or D2. And I know many of you will say that colleges aren't producing enough pro or national team players but I will say look at college hockey; For years the junior hockey system was the route many players took to become pro and recently many of the college programs have been placing their kids in the pros. It seems the pro teams are ok with a kid going to play college hockey as it gives them 4 years of growing, getting stronger and still playing pretty good hockey. Yet I know many people will say to look toward Europe for the model of making pro soccer players, and none (or very few) of those kids go to university or college then play pro soccer. Guess I don't really know where or what the solution to be. But I definitely am not a fan of seeing US colleges with 18 internationals filling the soccer roster (look at D2 national champs. I think 3 Americans on that roster)
NJCAA had it limited for several years. They've recently rescinded that rule. Lawsuits were too burdensome. Apparently, it was discriminatory to withhold scholarships based on nationality.
The alternative argument is that foreign players are raising the standard of play so that kids like Morris who spend time in college get to play in a much higher quality environment. Given there are over 200 D1 schools to play at, it is hard to argue anyone close to being professional level doesn't have a place to play.
Why does the FA require English players on rosters? What is the parallel to US youth/college/pro soccer? What messages are college coaches sending to US families when they say they'd be better off with a roster with as few US players as possible? We've seen the peak of US players in US college soccer, it will only go down from here and eventually the supply will meet the demand. and the demand is approaching zero at many schools. US clubs are already closing or merging due to shrinking participation...who supplies the US academies with 12 year old soccer players? For now, US youth clubs. 10 years from now will that still be true? We're such a big country, not enough great players will be born within an hour of an academy club. The economies of the other countries are stagnant, what do you think those families think when a US coach offers them a place on a college roster, a free education and the potential they can stay in the US to find employment? What if they offered that to their 13 year old? So, a few top academic schools like Wake, Stanford and Duke can get current academy players or the top remaining US players by offering the degree. For other schools, why have a college soccer team that is a drag on the budget, is 90% kids from other countries and 2-3 kids from the US who never play AND is a drag on title IX ratios? What do the MLS teams demand? US players? They want to be the best in the world, the fastest way to do that would be to fill their academies with foreign youth players who go to school at the academy and matriculate to the pitch. Unless MLS puts a US player requirement in, their only demand is soccer players and the world has the supply, not US colleges. We think filling college teams with international players is going to help the USMNT, how has the England team been doing? At least there they viewed it as an imperative to preserve their club system. In the US, will enough people care if youth clubs close, colleges drop the teams and the MLS teams are 100% players from other countries? Now, what advice do you have for a US family with some young athletes? Try soccer? Or lacrosse?
Now, just to play Devil's Advocate, simply because I have been on the recruiting side. There is little money, for the most part, in college scholarships for men's soccer. There is an ease AND laziness factor in recruiting international players -- coaches get tons of emails from international scouts, players, recruiters, etc. every day. Those emails come with financial capabilities, academic capabilities, and all the information a college coach would need. That's so easy. Meanwhile, coaches can go try recruiting American players and get the same excuse: I don't think I want to play college soccer, I'd rather go to X-school to pursue my degree (i.e., party). Maybe the biggest thing excuse is: I'm waiting for a DI scholarship. American players think they are better than what they are (this happens with internationals too, don't get me wrong). So, for many of these smaller schools and not major conference schools, they feel they HAVE to get international players to compete with bigger schools and major conference schools. It's a chicken and egg sort of conundrum. Where can there be a "meet in the middle" or "understanding" that getting as many American players playing as high as they possibly can will ONLY make the game that much better. Coaches are forced to "win" and they have to do it now -- what's easier? An international player that is 18 and a domestic player that is 18 are world's apart in terms of their "soccer age." Simple fact. Then, look at the cultures they come from. An international grows up with soccer all the time while a domestic player grows up doing soccer, football, basketball, baseball, choir, band, Boy Scouts, etc. Who can help the team more immediately? Who seems to have more invested in the sport? So, a college coach needs to win, who would you pick?
To to play Devil's Advocate with the Devil's Advocate: Don't you get the exact same information from US based players? There is a form on every college web site. The first couple mostly sound like nonsense, while the last one sounds like the real reason. Top schools get first choice of the best players while schools with less to offer get the rest. Foreign kids more like to group all schools together in a big US bucket or see a school like Pacific in California figure its similar to something like UCSB or San Diego pretty close to a beach and nice weather like they see on TV. Really? A good chunk of the top players in SoCal are Hispanic kids who live and breath soccer as much as kids from other cultures. Furthermore, playing other sports and doing other things ends up helping kids become better athletes with a relatively cost depending on how much and how long. Where the big difference has been is in the quality of coaching. In US it has been pretty poor to very poor in most areas, but has dramatically increased in quality. If anything the biggest difference is in age as "freshman," as many foreign kids are a year of two older during their first year.
I appreciate the input on this thread it is very informative. One question, with full disclosure I am the parent of a child currently playing in the academy system. My son is in an academy that is not a free academy so we are paying for this. When my son joined the academy they preached the academy as a path to college soccer. if the better universities all start focusing on foreign players with a US national team kid here and there then what is the point of your child playing in the academy system? obviously if your academy is free then this would be a different conversation. As far as I am concerned if playing soccer in college allows my son to get a better or as good as college education as he would be able to get without soccer, assuming the cost factor, then we have won. I know there are a ton of opportunities to play college soccer however for us a major if not the most important factor is the quality of the education for what my son wants to major in, and that is yet to be determined. It is just sort of scary/sad if the majority of the good education/decent soccer programs/ relatively affordable for my family universities only recruit foreign players. This would be a significant negative to the academy system as I see it and as it applies to my family and situation. I know that my situation is not the same as everyone out there by a long shot.
I like it scoachd1! Thanks for the reply. Now...to reply to a reply. There may be a form on every college website, but international recruiters have one email to send and it reaches thousands of US coaches at once. Internationals and recruiters reach out to college coaches. US kids do not at the rate of internationals (in my experience). Literally, numerous emails a day from various international players/recruiters/services...few a week from domestic players. In my experience, US players are not as proactive in finding a place to play. US players think they'll get recruited if they are good enough or play here or there. While that is true. Most colleges and coaches will not see a player. It's much easier and much more productive to go on referrals, replies, and those that are dropped in the lap of a college coach. It may be nonsense to you, but it's not nonsense in my experience. I've recruited for 3 different colleges, various parts of the country that include around 20 states. All are factors. I know coaches that have terrific scholarship budgets and some with horrific. I know coaches with great recruiting budgets and some with none. It really is a crapshoot on how a coach recruits, where they recruit, and where players can and will go. There are international players in Nowheresville, America. In the end, international players will go where they can play soccer and get a degree. In that order. While prestige of a program is important, they want to go for cheap. I know a major DI program in a recruiting battle with a pretty good NAIA program. It's down to those two schools. One is in a great location (DI), while the other is not a destination (NAIA). So, it's not necessarily "top schools get first choice of the best players...schools with less get the rest." Players make the decisions on a crazy amount of reasons. That's how some DII, DIII, or NAIA programs make their living. Recruiting players away from DI (or DII, DIII, or NAIA) when that player could go to a "top school." SoCal? Really...make the culture reference on 50 states because of how SoCal kids may be? I am not, nor will I ever say, "no one in America truly has a soccer culture." You said it yourself, "if anything the biggest difference is in age as 'freshman.'" While some internationals do come in older as a "freshman," there are many that still come over at 18. That still verifies, either way (older freshman or traditional freshman), "who can help the team more immediately?" I agree, to a point, with you on the coaching aspect. But, you can take the best coach and put them in an area and the place may never develop a soccer culture. In the end, a coach only does so much. Kids develop so much more than just within an organized coaching environment. That's where the culture trumps a lot of coaching. A kid can grow up with almost zero organized coaching and still be a better player than a US club player because of his/her culture -- i.e., SoCal Hispanic kids you mentioned. A coach will still go back and select who he/she believes will help the team more immediately. That coach also relies heavily on his/her experiences in coaching/playing. He/She may have a history of recruiting or playing with international players...he/she may recruit more internationals. It's really hard to pinpoint how to "fix" the situation without an emphasis like NJCAA had at one point. But, that comes with some major backlash. As many complaints as people have toward college soccer and its development of players, the bigger problem lies with players below college being good enough to play higher, period. Thousands of kids are not even prepared to play college soccer -- part of the reason internationals are recruited. If thousands of kids aren't prepared to play college, what is a better option? There has to be some avenue for a domestic player to develop from 18-23 years old. With the current American soccer structure, the relative soccer age of players is so young by 18 years old, there is a tremendous developmental opportunity from 18+...unless there's a change in the structure.
Likewise - appreciate the response. While I have friends in other areas of the country, my personal experience is primarily SoCal, which obviously isn't representative of the rest of the country. So its good to get knowledgeable perspective from other areas. Fair point. I can't tell you how many parents just thought their job was to pay for a ton of tournaments and somehow out of the hundreds of kids players there, coaches would find their kid. Many had no clue you had to proactively contact coaches. While this did happen occasionally, virtually all coach initiated contacts came from places where my kid had little interest in attending. There are many reasons to pick schools. I'm just questioning the magnitude of the stated examples for serious high level players. I completely agree with this aspect. US parents in general realize how little money there is in playing so the value the quality of the school far more. Don't disagree with that either. But the in general there is a pecking order with the elite programs grabbing the elite talent early, then the next tier grabbing the next best with the bottom feeders picking up the stragglers late in the game. SoCal is a big chunk of the countries soccer talen. Also even places like Kansas have Hispanics (and non-Hispanics) where soccer is the sport they focus upon. In the past decade, soccer players from the rest of the country have begun to look a lot more like SoCal kids. The Hispanic kids are good are good because they get good coaching. Many used to start out ahead because their parents taught them the game. But unless they start working with a quality coach, they will end up having huge holes in their games and lose out to properly coached players. These players are often very dominant footed, with sublime skills in a couple of areas but huge weaknesses which are exposed at higher speeds of play. Coaches will pick player that will help them succeed. Foreign kids just raise the bar for those that want to work hard to succeed. Agreed. Biggest issue is from 8-12. By the time a kid gets to school, they should have all the fundementals down and know how to practice on their own. NCAA severely limits contact hours, so if you don't know how to practice on your own, you are at a severe disadvantage if you want to play beyond college.
Schools don't recruit foreign players because they want to do so. Instead they recruit them because they feel they have to do so to be competitive. If you want your kid to have options, its more important understand the rules of the recruiting game than to play on an academy program. Even if you play nothing but High School and a decent club soccer program you can get into any school if your son reaches out to programs that he has the ability to play on. Even a school with the pick of the litter like UCLA has a number of non-academy kids in their program. For example, I think Zarboni and Danladi played nothing but High School while Martinez played just one year in academy.
It is my understanding that teams can access funding from the university over and above their normal team scholarship limits because the foreign players qualify for other types of money and also modified admissions standards etc. I have no proof of this but it has been stated to me several times by parents of current college players. On another thread I pointed out a team like Hofstra had 18 foreign players and 5 US players, only one from outside NY. I don't think it is impossible for Hofstra to find more than 5 US players. Granted, limiting your recruiting to NY (I think all were from Long Island) and one kid from MD does reduce the pool. But a D1 college in the NY area could fill a program with 40 D1 caliber players if they were allowed to. My perspective on this is a team brings on a few local kids to make sure the roster isn't 100% foreign but those kids are more likely to be 'token' players who get few meaningful minutes. I don't disagree this is about winning, but it also is about laziness. Firms in Spain, England etc. will supply teams with players...coaches don't need to spend Thanksgiving weekend at a showcase tournament, they don't need to spend months courting a player and competing with other schools. The firm has a relationship with the coach and they players are supplied. That is demonstrated when you see a team with 8 Spanish players or 6 guys from Africa...that doesn't happen randomly.
Many foreign governments (especially small countries like Iceland) pay all or most of the costs for their citizens to attend US colleges. The coach gets a player without spending any of his athletic department money. For D3 coaches, who supposedly have no scholarship money, that is even more of a benefit.
1. Foreign kids do not get different admission standards. They must comply with TOEFL, SAT and GPA results as required by both NCAA and the recruiting college. The coaches are always stressing the point to get the results validated by the admission departments, which are not especially kind. 2. Most foreign kids only get the athletic scholarship, because: - Foreign governments (and not so many) offer a limited number of academic scholarships based on high academic results/merits. Most soccer players having practiced in academies do not get these high results due to their athletic burden. - Very very few US colleges propose academic scholarships to foreign students. Again only based on significantly high academic results. 3. Foreign kids also have to deal with large expenses. The first ones being the cost of travel and initially all fees to be able to apply and to join. 4. Very few get full ride athletic scholarships. So I would like to suggest you to check facts and not listen to rumors. 5. Last points: Foreign players usually did not pass APs. Meaning they have the full 120 credits to obtain, while numerous US players get a significant number of credits through APs, which make really easier their academic schedule. Foreign players are not allowed to work (outside the college) and thus rarely can get some extra cash via student jobs or internships. Conclusion: it is not a black and white story. The bad ones on one side and the good ones on the other side. Now, I would also not understand why teams get a so large majority of foreign players. If the data you provide is of a better quality than the rumors you are circulating. But they seem to be exception not the rule.
Wow, that's a lot of straw men you have created. I didn't say rumors. I didn't say full scholarships. I didn't say they have no admissions criteria; just as some soccer players (and many athletes) are beneficiaries of modified admissions standards, there are allowances made for all kinds of things. Are you suggesting that doesn't happen? I didn't say anything about graduation rates, criteria or ease ... no idea where you are going with that. I can't make heads nor tails of the last few sentences but thanks for the suggestion, I'll really take it to heart.
I do not really believe this. This is exactly what would cause NCAA violations. Can you give any good examples? Written ones, if they exist? I've never seen modified admissions standards for athletes in my 8+ years (12 if you count competing AND working) in college athletics.
Having worked at a few programs at various levels, I can say without hesitation that you are naive in this regard.
Working at a few programs at various levels, I can say without hesitation that I have not seen it. I continue to work in college athletics (and college admissions side) and still haven't seen it. Again, I'd like to see good examples of where it applies. Especially if there's something written that gives leniency to international students and/or athletes. If there were "modified admissions standards," I have seen violations from NCAA come through. Sure, it will happen...and many times it can be punished (granted, it's rather lenient at times). If it's not punished, then someone is not doing their job in investigating and/or reporting the violations. I definitely haven't seen any admissions departments bend over backwards to help ANY soccer players get in via "modified admissions standards."
Do you mean like Harvard who lets you in with a 1350 SAT instead of 1500 ? There are modified admissions standards for athletes even at the elite schools but it is all relative. One schools modified admissions are another schools full academic scholarship.
Ponchat: Maybe you and First Time Finish are talking about different things? Are you saying you haven't seen athletes admitted with standard test scores (SAT/ACT) and GPAs well below a university's average? Or are you saying you've never seen a written policy of a university stating that athletes can be admitted with lower test scores and GPAs? I know most BIG schools (likely all of them), Notre Dame, Stanford and Duke all admit students who would not have been admitted if they weren't athletes. To my knowledge, if the prospective student athlete clears the NCAA Eligibility Center requirements, then as far as the NCAA is concerned, the school can recruit him or her and admit or deny under the school's own procedures. Is that wrong?