Puck, step back for a second. Greg has been a member of great standing here for a number of years. Not once have I seen him ever debate in bad faith or with an agenda, either open or hidden. What I have seen him do is consistently seek to increase knowledge, challenge misconceived "established wisdom" and debate with a host of posters, providing sources and support where appropriate. Does he come at things from a German stand point, using German sources often? Of course, in the way that many of our best posters use the information available to them. But we also need to get away from the allusions to WWII and the confrontational nature of many of the posts here.
When someone opens one (perhaps a few more) threads about the "misbehaviour" of nearest rival Italy, backed up with German 'sources' indeed (and it is that IFFHS one which you despise here by yourself link ) then it is maybe not argued "in bad faith" but it is argued from a certain preconception and it does express sort of a conspiracy theory. If you like to see it otherwise, it is your choice. Meanwhile, while I never denied my dislike against German football in particular, I never even bothered to open a thread with whatever theories, evidence or scandals. And this is for all supporters of Greg and haters of me (frasermc). ---- Whatever, media being supposedly kind to whichever club happens and happened in every country. See how media were allegedly too much charmed by Manchester United in the 1960s and later on in the 1990s.
Excuse me...? I don't hate anyone on BS. I'm not that petty minded. How can I hate people I don't even know...?!
I don't despise the IFHHS. I own a number of their publications and find them to be invaluable. However, I take their yearly rankings of leagues and their player rankings with a pinch of salt as I would do with any organisation. The magazines they previously produced were a phenomenal resource and it is a great shame IMO that they stopped and are so hard to acquire now. There is no denying that they are small and obscure. So is BigSoccer but it doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of value on here. I'm not a hater of you and I want to make that clear. You have contributed as much information and knowledge in this forum in the last year as anyone else. You do need to consider why though you are the source of so much conflict with posters who rarely if ever get into that with other people.
Hang on a minute Puck. You take great offence in anyone writing disparaging remarks about you or your character but, when you do the same to someone, you dismiss it with a wave of your hand...? And you wonder why people have issues with your style at times...
Did I accuse you of mental retardation, conspiracy theories or whatever? No. I only used the word hater which is an exaggeration in the literal sense. As you know, the word is used quite often used on the web in such a context. It is one word, not a personal hitjob. And to be fair, I don't feel the obligation to justify myself against you, the Greg homie. I quit with this.
And yet again, you feel the need to have another dig. You constantly complain about character assassination against yourself but can't seem to stop doing it to others. You know, it's a forum on the internet. Not everyone is going to agree with everything you say all of the time. You need to grow up a little and learn to accept this.
Stop with this BS. What you do is repping personal attacks and of course repping comme too who re-packages revisionism into "challenging misconceived established wisdom." After that episode you start to single out one little word and interpret in a way that suits you in order to play the smart guy and belittling others. And it is not the first time you rep personal attacks against me (or someone else). I don't give a damn shit about how a Scottish jock looks at me but if you start to play the smart guy by singling out, quoting and nitpicking a multi-interpretive word you deserve such 'digs' indeed. Feel free to continue with your act but this is my last post in this thread.
While I agree Beckenbauer was a very complete player. but his starting role was a CM, then DM and finally he SHONE great as a CB with a "libero" role as innovation = thanks to his "prior CM experience as player" 64- 66: CM at both Bayern and NT 66-69: CB/libero at Bayern and DM at NT 70-retire: CB/libero at both Bayern and NT
*sigh* You're either not reading what I'm typing or you're not comprehending what I've read. I don't rep personal attacks. I rep posts I believe deserve to be 'repped'. I'm sure if you look through your reps you've received you'll find I've repped posts of yours as well. But that wouldn't fit in with your persecution complex you seem to have honed to a fine art. If you're going to post on internet forums you need to try and grow a thicker skin. Goodness knows how you cope in the real world...
the kicker ratings wasnt harsh for goalkeepers and defensive players.....the ratings of offensive players looks dubious in big parts... example : bundesliga season 1974/75 where kicker has rated 223 players... top 31 ranked players :...14 goalkeepers (lol),11 defensive players,5 midfielders and ONLY 1 offensive player...... jupp heynckes was bundesliga topscorer with 27 goals...inclusive 6 assists he was runner up in scorerpoints ,33 ....his ranking was 70th out of 223 players....17 goalkeepers was ranked above him... bayern munichs bum and scumbag for the season gerd müller was third ranked with 23 goals, and with add. 11 assists he was leader with 34 scorerpoints for the bundesliga season...he was ranked 112th out of 223 players...all 18 goalkeepers was ranked above him...dieter müller with 24 goals was runner up with 24 goals (+4 assists)...he was ranked 190th out of 223 players...only 15 offensive players was ranked in the top 112, in opposition of all 18 goalkeepers,48 defensive players in the top 112.. sepp maier and 3 defensive bayern players was ranked above gerd müller despisite the fact bayern munich was ranked 12th most goals conceeded and ranked 8th most goals scored.... i remember a while ago gerd müllers first half for the season 1974/75 mentioned here in forum was descripted allmost pitiful...a proof was 1 goal in the first 9 games of the season...he was single picked out....ignoring the worster stats of others for the season ...ignoring the fact in his first 9 games he had 5 or 6 assists and 2 created penaltys..50% contribution of bayern munichs 16 goals...ignoring his 10 goals,5-6 assists and 2 created penaltys in his first half of the season 16 games... dürnberger 1973/74 8 goals, 1974/75 no goals beckenbauer/schwarzenbeck 1973/74 combinated 11 goals, 1974/75 combinated 4 goals hoeness 1973/74 , 18 goals, 1974/75 8 goals (few lesser games played but still much worster) müller 1973/74 , 30 goals, 1974/75 23 goals beckenbauer has scored more owngoals (2)than goals (1)....kicker rated him 9 games with a 1 performance.....inclusive the game düsseldorf-bayern where müller with 3 goals, 1 assist gave his team a 4: 2 lead only to see bayern conceeded 4 goals in the second half , loosing 6:5....müller got a 2 rating...beckenbauer a 1 rating ..for me a mysery... 9 games with kicker 1 ratings for beckenbauer season 1974/75...müller in his 1969/70 season (surpassing emmerich 31 goal season) with 38 goals was credited only 3 games with a kicker 1 rating...olso leader in assists (8) tied with brenninger same season.... beckenbauer in season 1969/70 has played 33 games and 18 games with a kicker perfect -1-rating .müller needed 8 season (most of his his prime)..1969/70-1976/77 to be combinated awarded 21 games with a kicker rating -1-..... i call this kicker ratings dubious for offensive players
example bundesliga season 1975/76....... top 30 rated players bundesliga.....13 goalkeepers,11 defensive players,6 midfielders, ZERO offensive player... example bundesliga season 1976/77... top 32 rated players bundesliga......13goalkeepers,13 defensive players , 6 midfielders , ONLY 1 offensive player ONLY 3 offensive players in the top 60??? topscorer for season dieter müller with 34 goals in 34 games was rated 152??????????
Thanks. That was also something I noticed. Somewhere that doesn't feel right. It was one of the highest scoring leagues (high GPG) and a handful of defensive players received a '1' as default rating regardless of how many goals they conceded (a 5:0 beating and still getting the highest mark - not impossible but unlikely), and own goals hadn't always a noticeable effect either. What do you know about the assists Müller had? Is your source the fussballdaten.de website? If so, what is their original source, in case you know? Or is it their own work? I already noticed in the past that they count some rebounds also as an assist. This is the most noticeable example I remember: Did you see the fine thread that your fellow fan created? https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/bundesliga-records-1963-2012.1990991/ Müller is mentioned several times (Beckenbauer and Vogts also a few but as a defenders not as often ofc)
I had a look at the Kicker report for that game Fortuna Düsseldorf v Bayern München (6-5, June 1975). Here's what they wrote about Beckenbauer: "Franz Beckenbauer, who as the outstanding player and who oftentimes received a standing ovation, spoke of a game of superlatives. .... "today we could see how beautiful football can be. We always look forward traveling to Düsseldorf, not least because of the brilliant spectators". The 32,000 went back home satisfied in all aspects. They had experienced a great encounter, witnessed a Fortuna that fought ardently and enjoyed a world class performance by Beckenbauer, who played virtually flawless. Franz himself enjoyed the spectators: "they celebrated us as if we had played at home in Munich". The report also mentions that many mistakes were done in defense, especially by Josef Weiss (against Reiner Geye), by Bernd Dürnberger (against Dieter Herzog) and by Katsche Schwarenbeck (against Wolfgang Seel). Gerd Müller was voted "Mann des Tages" (man of the day) of the 33rd matchday. He had scored his three goals within 4 minutes (it was not a hattrick though, as Werner Kriegler had scored a goal between Müller's run). This is what the match report said about Gerd Müller: Up until his three goals, Gerd Müller had played in midfield, and between his 'hattrick' within only 4 minutes he permitted his marker Kriegler to score the second Fortuna goal. Despite the 2-4 at half-time, the home side didn't resign, Kriegler was moved to sweeper and Fred Hesse took care of marking Gerd Müller - the attack machine of Fortuna started to roll. .... Gerd Müller may not have been the most eye-catching player from a footballing perspective, yet he was the most dangerous player on the pitch. This is what Kicker wrote in his "man of the day" profile: He seemed to be written off as king of the goalscorers despite having scored 20 goals this season in the Bundesliga until the game against Fortuna Düsseldorf. 17 of his 20 goals he had scored at home in the Olympiastadion, among them many penalties, hence one couldn't speak of a permanent dangerousness of the former "Bomber". All this seemed still to be the case until the 38th minute against Fortuna Düsseldorf, suddenly Müller "exploded" like in old times. He scored three goals within 5 minutes, one more beautiful than the other. If Bayern continues to play in this style in the last game against Hamburg, then he might even manage a sensation by reaching Jupp Heynckes, who was leading the top scorers table for so long. For that, Müller would have to score at least two goals in the last game and Heynckes must not score a goal in Bremen.
Here are the highlights of that June 1975 game from Kicker's own website: http://www.kicker.de/news/bl50/video.html A direct link doesn't seem to work. To find that game, just type "Fortuna Düsseldorf" next to "suchen" and there it comes as the second from top.
I've seen that highlight before. I think it illustrates well what 'Muller-fan' (don't want to mistype his nickname ) means. If I look at the standards of today then scoring a hat-trick is good guarantee for getting a very high rating. A rating of 2 out of 6 (with lower means better) is still very good of course. But generally one would get a 1 or 1.5 for scoring a hat-trick, in the game of today (is my feeling). Say, a 9/10 or 10/10 rating on a 1 to 10 scale. In the highlights I see two direct mistakes by Beckenbauer: beaten in the air at 2:3 and another error at 6:5. I know all sorts of (relevant) arguments are possible like how offence can outweigh defence and that mistakes are part of the game, esp. at a high goals per game league. But, in today's standards, generally the perfect score isn't given to 'defenders' who make two direct errors - and if one doesn't want to call it an "error" it is still a case where the defender is directly beaten by the goalscorer. At the same time, scoring three goals is a good guarantee for a perfect score. And even today many still think that defenders have still a slight advantage. Saw though that Schwarzenbeck and Durnberger had a below average score (4 out of 6 is a slightly insufficient, below average, score)
yes the source is fußballdaten.de....i think gamereports was used maybe videoproof too, but i dont know for sure.... example 1974/75 fußballdaten.de credit gerd müller with 11 assists.....this isnt bad if we put in perspective of all players fußballdaten.de count up with 8 or more goals for the season, gerd müller was ranked 2th with 11 assists, leader rainer geye with 15 assists,third ranked simonsen with 10 assists....i own videohighlights of bayern munich games where confirm some assists.....against bremen at home 1974/75, bayern won 2:0, müller shot the ball against the post and hoeness picked up the rebound, dribbled out 1 or 2 defenders?? and scored a goal....gerd müller was creditet a assist.. if we take away this assist he has 10 assists and not 11. his other assist in this game was a backheel assist., videofootage is available..however fußballdaten.de dont credit müller 1 assist in a game against hertha berlin same season, bayern did loose 4:1..videofootage i own of gerd müllers assist, müller has dribbled out 2 defenders and assistet rummenigge a goal....so 11 assists still count... using fußballdaten.de isnt bad but not perfect due lack of videofootage at times... however goals from rebounds count assist...
That thread has a decent amount of records, but I would have liked to add even more but I lacked the Top 10 or Top 5 for many other records. For example, "most weeks atop the Top Scorers table". I compiled that in the early-1990s (of course G.Müller at no. 1) but don't have it updated for the last 20 years. It's the kind of "weird" record you won't find anywhere.
English is surely my second language and I have developed much in recent years (550 points comparable to TOEFL (in only reading and grammar) I think Roy should not be involved with any kind of players' comparison and all-time ranking since he has never believed on it. The best thing we just apply his invaluable knowledge to take into account.
Player comparisons are fine: it's the A-T ranking ladders that I (just personally) don't really believe in, mate. PDG just provided an invaluable service in starting a Sir Bobby Charlton v. Didi thread that was originally my idea...
Greatest individual club seasons in the modern era ( 1990- ) 1.)Lionel Messi 2010/11 2.) Lionel Messi 2014/15 3.) Ronaldo El fenomeno 1997/98 4.) Lionel Messi 2011/12 5.) Lionel Messi 2012/13 6.) Cristiano Ronaldo 2011/12 7.) Ronaldo El fenomeno 1996/97 8.) Lionel Messi 2009/10 7.) Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08 8) ronaldinho gaucho 2005/06 9.)Roberto baggio 1992/93 10.) Cristiano Ronaldo 2013/14 11.) Cristiano Ronaldo 2012/13 12.) romario 1993/94 13.) Lionel Messi 2008/09 14) Thierry Henry 2003/04 15.) rivaldo 1998/99 16.) Cristiano Ronaldo 2006/07 17.) xavi Hernandez 2009/10 18.) ronaldinho 2004/05 19.)xavi Hernandez 2008/09 20.) zinedine zidane 2001/02 Honourable mentions Dejan savicevic 1990/91 Iniesta 2011/12 Cristiano Ronaldo 2010/11 Stoichkov 1992/93 George weah 1995/96 Neymar jr 2015/16 Messi/kaka 2006/07 Thierry Henry 2002/03 R9 2002/03 Shevchenco 2000/01 Figo 2000/01 Zlatan/Suarez 13/14(maybe) Riquelme 2004/05 Bergkamp 1997/98 Del piero 1997/98
@carlito86 I agree with most of your list but R9 is being overrated. Most people judge him on how good he could have been rather than how good he actually was.