The Greatest Players' Seasons of All-Time

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Dearman, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Oh, wow a typo. Got me there.
    For someone who supposedly is an 80 year old journalist, you sure know how to argue.
     
  2. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England


    [You're quickly headed for the losing side of a FOOTBALL debate w/me and so you start casting doubt on my credentials: I've NEVER seen that one before.

    Why don't you hit me w/some more hypocrisy about my debating style? :rolleyes:]
     
  3. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    When did we have a debate? I asked you a simple question and instead of answering you went offtopic. I wouldn't call that a debate and certainly the one who needs to point out typos isn't the winner.

    After reading your discussion with Dearman where it took you several posts to even understand what he means, I'm not very interested anyway.

    On the internet nobody knows you're a dog.
     
  4. TashaBanks

    TashaBanks New Member

    Mar 11, 2013
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Iker Casillas single handedlly won the FIFA 2010 in my opinion. he should be mentioned
     
  5. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
     
  6. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England



    [Also, what the feck does being a veteran journalist/Fleet St. professional have to do w/one's capability in an argument?

    You may as well have said, "For being an eighty year-plus master plumber I thought you'd be a better brain surgeon-" or "I would've thought that an eighty year old chef would be a better chess player-"... :confused: & :rolleyes:]
     
  7. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Exactly. It doesn't.

    But...
    [Probably my favourite part is where someone tells me that I don't know crap about Wright compared to a pack of twenty year olds in a football history group that never even saw Wright in the car park @ Molineux or Wembley; let alone on an actual pitch... ;)]
     
  8. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Keep believin'.

    With 'overrated by award' Dearman meant that Billy Wright has similar Ballon D'or finishes like Moore or Baresi (who both are ahead in his A-T list) if you don't look at the context (one vote less would put him to 6th place potentially). To be fair the voting being close is something you've pointed out in your first post.
    Basically if you'd compile a list based on Ballon D'Or results Wright would finish Top 10, Dearman however has him 37th in his opinion.

    It does not mean that he doesn't rate Wright or thinks he's a medicore player (something what you seem to equate with the word 'overrated'.)

    Two completly different thing.
    If I'm claiming that Pele is twice as good as Maradona and Di Stefano combined I'm also overrating him.

    You still don't understand.
    Wright isn't even the issue.

    Sources orginated in the timeframe in question (you provided those though after some discussion IIRC) and eyewitness sources recalling events from the past are two different pair of shoes.

    :rolleyes: It's a saying and not to be taken literally...
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Mister Roy is sometimes hard to follow but I respect his views and opinions. They give insight.

    No, 'kicker' is not necessarily more credible than an experienced watcher. Kicker was founded by Bavarian people, more specifically by board members of Bayern Munich, paid by them and located in the South as well (same as most of their journalists at the HQ). Plus a good and long standing relationship with Adidas, just like the club too. Some ratings are really dubious and doubtful.

    I appreciate Roy his insight and I can understand, considering his alignment, that he 'defends' Wright. Wasn't my intention to upset him.
     
  10. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    This suspicion is confirmed by the awfully high ratings Müller always recieved.
    Or MGladbach having a higher average, despite finishing 15 points behind FCB in 72/73.
     
    Loddar and Gregoriak repped this.
  11. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    "Kicker" was founded in Konstanz, which is very close to the Swiss border and not in Bavaria. It then moved to Nuremberg which is the capitol of Franconia. Franconia is part of Bavaria but they hate being part of Bavaria as they are distinctly different from Bavarians and they loathe being ruled by Munich. "Kicker" was founded by Walter Bensemann, who participated in the foundation of various Southern German clubs around 1900, among them "Frankfurter Kickers" (a precursor of Eintracht Frankfurt) and "MTV München" (a precursor of Bayern München). We're talking about "Kicker" ratings from the late-1960s/early-1970s. That you see a link between Bensemann's participation in the foundation of MTV München in 1897 and the "rangliste" Kicker staff writers came up with 60-70 years later is quite simply spectacular. "Addidas" is your all-round weapon whenever you want to discredit anything about German football, now the credibility of "Kicker" is the next victim of your "addidas" world conspiracy of German football.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers, Loddar and frasermc repped this.
  12. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    About your comment on the quality of the replay: Anyone that watches games from the 1970s notices that replay scenes very often flickered back then. Replay was a new feature in the 1970s and you can see such bad quality replay scenes in many broadcasts of the time from many different countries.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    There are a few 70s Gladbach vs Bayern DVDs available. Go watch them and tell me whether their 'default' rating of a 1.0 (which means "perfect" even in cases where they lost with 4:0) for Vogts & Beckenbauer are justified. In some cases I got the impression that they assigned ratings by default to players. Which of course also happened in other countries.

    As for Gregoriak, you're are part of those 'conspiracies' and manipulations. Good to see that you surfaced from your Bavarian beer-halls to join the insult fest here. I can't help that some are supporter of a club and national team that have cheating, intimidation and manipulation in their blood for ages.

    I will not participate.
     
  14. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    ....where is Vogts' connection to Bavaria or Bayern Munich?
    Weren't you talking about how Kicker is biased towards Bayern players?
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    No schwuppe, this will not work. You can continue with your Roy bickering if that is your pastime.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The most funny thing is that their favourite player was also a mister conspiracy. On several occasions either him or his clever (villian?) manager Schwan accused others of buying Ballon d'Or votes. Which was of course a stupid accusation, why spending own money to buy a stupid piece of silverware? In reality of course it were the Germans, as co-sponsors and organizers, who came closer in having 'conflicting interests.'

    Btw, I do not say that only the Germans played 'games' in bending the poll to their hands.

    I'm afraid it has been a part of football.
     
  17. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I agree that Vogts and Beckenbauer getting 1 very easily looks dubious (the ratings weren't harsh in general) but where is the connection to your inital conspiracy theory point?
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes I agree that the general high ratings for Gladbach (probably for their perceived entertaining style) is a good point.
    I also agree that it looks they were harsh on Müller. At periods when his club dropped in performances (i.e. 74-75 season and esp. the first half) it was him who suffered -arguably- quite a bit.

    It is good to mention that as caveat indeed.

    Though, voices that 'the media' tends to be quite nice to the Bavarians exist for ages. You know probably know the sort of resentment that lives in other circles of their country (of course, success always attracts resentment esp. if it tends to be achieved in a economical way). Bayern-Dusel etcetera.
    When in 1971 the bribery scandal broke lose, clubs like Schalke were heavily punished. Some resentment that 'some clubs' escaped closer scrutiny and investigation by authorities AND media certainly existed and exists. That is no BS.

    My 2c.

    Anyway, original 'opinion' was that an age-old and experienced follower like mister Roy is not necessarily less credible as a mass market publication. Also not necessarily more credible by the way. That's it.
     
  19. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England




    [Two can play the quote game as well: should I re-post what you said about me actually viewing great players in action compared to what you said about Kicker writers doing the same thing?

    Also, what you quoted was a JOKE: that's what the "winky" symbol means, mate... :rolleyes:]
     
  20. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England



    [Yes, IK: Dearman and I worked this out via PM and in other threads quite a while back. But, you need to set me straight because we're all a load of daft gits compared to your superior intellect, right?:rolleyes:

    You're also criticising my approach in the middle of a football discussion w/a bloke for whom English is like his fourth or fifth language (& Dearman knows that I love him like a son).

    I also posted the link to that thread because there's at least two links in there that go to where you or anyone can read further eyewitness accounts of Wright in action. Only you would take the "side action" in the thread and try to batter my debating/discussion style and strategy on an issue that was resolved seven-plus months ago, mate. :rolleyes:]
     
  21. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England


    [Thank you yet again for your kind words, mate.

    You didn't offend me in the slightest, "Puck": I already admitted that part of the reason the Edwards & Wright discussion went sideways was because I didn't fully understand what you meant and again I offer my apologies if I caused any offence. Such things can and will happen when one bloke's first language is Dutch, the other's is English and we're communicating via the written word IMHO...

    XT.org also has a different "local culture" (for lack of a better term) than here: Dagoods was another poster over there that I just used to go hammer and tongs w/in sport debates in their forums and many posters thought that we HATED each other. But, in reality we were quite friendly via PM over there and here and he used to ask me loads of questions about classic footballers and all-time great basketball players (another one of my favourite team sports).]
     
  22. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Again read my next post, that this is not the same thing.
    I don't doubt your ability in particular to recall details (e.g. performance of a random player in a random game) that happened decades ago accurately, I doubt EVERYONE'S ability to do this.
    Demonstrated by the likes of James or Pipiolo day in day out.

    I see... sorry.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Was a few hours ago looking for a map I've seen once that shows the 'territory' of each club in Germany - to be fair, I remember that Nuremberg was an enclave in an otherwise Bayern dominated landscape (i.e. in Nuremberg itself the club hasn't conquered the plurality of fan support). Cannot find that map any more.

    This is the best I was able to find:

    [​IMG]
    [Of course, population density has to be taken into account here]

    [​IMG]
     
  24. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Right on Puck, I know it is useless arguing with you on German football history, you're so out of touch with reality, living in your fantasy world of conspiracy theories, it would be wasted time trying to argue a point with you. I only quoted your post for others to see what nonsense you are spreading on these boards (in regards to German football in general).

    Continue to bullshit this forum, I don't mind.

    Actually I don't see where Roy has been disputing Kicker's rating of German players of the 1960s/70s?

    I value Roy's insight very much as he's not only been following the game for 70+ years as a "mere" spectator but he's done it professionally as a writer covering it.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Says someone who consistently denies, and even admits that it is his 'mission', the Austria-Germany fix at the 1982 World Cup while quotes by managers and involved players (Matthaus) clearly hint otherwise. So much for your credibility and perceived sincere agenda.

    Obviously, you are keen to leave out crucial details in your kicker narrative. And indeed, Adidas is an all-round weapon because they are all-pervasive and all-encompassing who managed to conquer a stake in basically everything, including the disciplinary sanctions - or changing or positive drug test in a negative one. Whether you like it or not, Germany had for some time in the FIFA 50% more seats as any other nation.

    And when Italy is involved, mister know-it-all comes with doping stories (while Germany has been systematic doping country #1 - will they ever send excuses to the family of Puskas?) and fielding of illegal players (while Germany did that too). But suddenly that is not smelling like imbalanced conspiracy theories but as the blind truth, with a German stamp of approval.

    Unfortunately, the Germans come in large numbers and are quite influential. I'm sure they are good in brushing away details and they will also succeed with that despised Austria-Germany game.

    They also did it with the 74-75 and 75-76 European Cup campaigns by Bayern Munich. In reality, they were labelled as 'cheaters' and 'parasites' by the European press for their large number of favourable calls and excessive fouling (similar to the "kungfu tackle" shown above) - and not only in the finals. Even to a degree that columns appeared with as message 'it is time to speak out against this travesty', mirroring the Calciopoli scandals of 20 years later.
    Nowadays, only the 1975 final is remembered in the common narrative, probably because an English side is involved and the Brits are simply thanks to their language very influential too. All other games are carefully brushed away from history, with a revised story having replaced it.

    Ever since I saw 'someone' spoiling a football thread with 'a' version of the Second World War I made up my mind - which also makes it different with the squabbles I sometimes have with Pipiolo or whoever. It was unfortunately successfully portrayed as if Germans were the victims and (citizens of) other nations offenders in disguise; something like a Catholic priest who preaches about the dignity of little children. It really disgusted me, that blind patriotism which was so mirroring of what whole legions of Germans do with football history. It was a stance and opinion of a blackskirt in disguise, in the best Bavarian tradition.

    Credibility is something personal, which everyone should decide for themselves. But I also have my own impression and judgement, and I think for a good reason. I never expressed it before in this way, because it is something personal, but now I did.
     

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