Rummenigge was never truly match-fit at Inter Milano. Zico’s second season plagued by injuries was virtually what Rummenigge endured during most of his career in Italy. In terms of scoring that was addressed here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/se...-player-ratings.2085771/page-50#post-37200804 Note: I’m not interested in what transpired in seasons that neither players competed in the same atmospheres at the same time. But the fact is Platini, Maradona, Rummenigge were excellent foreign scorers in the context of their time because they hit double figures between 1984-1987 on more than one occasion — in Maradona’s case, three seasons in a row and Platini two — the only other foreigner to do so was Ramon Diaz. For the standards of that time it was quite an achievement.
We must understand the context of that time. When you look at all foreigners you see that very few cracked double scoring figures in those seasons, except a handful that can be counted with one hand. The following season it’s only 2 foreigners that crack double figures: Maradona and Careca. So I think that does give a better perspective of how great these guys were, since it was very difficult to score in double digits.
I wasn’t arguing against the obvious difficulty of scoring in Serie a in the mid 80s( I believe I already made this clear) Being the main set piece taker of his team contributed heavily towards maradona posting respectable goal stats Maradonas goal record from open play isn’t remotely comparable to Michel Platinis from juventus for example So yes I agree with the crux of your argument reaching double digits in Serie A was hard but doable for great scorers in the league The only reason maradona appears on that list is because a significant proportion of his goals came from set piece situations Without set pieces platini would still be a great goalscorer in Serie a (within the context of that time) Without set pieces maradona would hard pressed to be classified as even a average scorer (within the context of that time) his goal record would be comparable to defensive players like Passarella Which leads me to think what maradona was in fact a very weak finisher (relative to his position and era ) Scoring 5 open play goals in 7 World Cup matches in 1986 was not a true representation of his goalscoring ability (it was too small a sample size in the first place to use as evidence) Out of the 3 recognised best players of the 80s maradona is imo by far the weakest finisher (and platini seems to me to be actually overrated as a FK specialist) 41 career FK doesn’t even begin to put him in the conversation(even within the context of his own era) Perhaps platini is in fact underrated as a finisher i might have to look into that further I’m pretty certain that even in this era maradona would be hard pressed to score 15-20 open play goals per season in super teams like Barcelona or Real Madrid in Napoli he only averaged 7 open play goals per season in all competition Today’s Barcelona/real Madrid did not score at double the rate of 1980s Napoli which makes the claim by some fanboys that maradona would easily score 30-40 goals per season today laughable He would only manage to do so he was the primary set piece taker (which of course would not be a true representation of his finishing ability)
In fact between 1984-1987 Rummenigge scored 27 open goals, Maradona 18 and Platini 17 in Serie A. The fact that these guys were in the top charts of Serie A for 3-4 consecutive seasons leads to only one conclusion: consistency. In my view Platini and Maradona were stronger free kick specialists over Zico because they beat the best defensive walls and goalkeepers in the world in their time. Once I reviewed Zico’s scoring from the free kicks and realized that it was rarely against the top echelon teams in the world, I completely disregarded the merits in his cause.
I was particularly surprised at the amount of penalties that Maradona scored in his Napoli carrer, I counted 45 (of his 115 Goals in the Italian club).
Sorry, but this is a stupid way to measure the ability of a free kick taker. In short, you would have to analyze the quality of the goalkeeper at the moment (even famous and elite GKs have below-average seasons), the opportunities the free kicker had in the game, and the measured chances to convert those opportunities, it is not an easy thing to do.
I surely think it was easy for him against State level opposition and/or bottom ranked sides. However, once I realized that facing top class goalkeepers from Serie A and at the NT level, that he rarely beat them from the dead-ball, I concluded that it rendered his claims as an all-time great free kick scorer to be unsuitable in such a debate.
Why again such a low sample size of matches 1984-87 I counted platinis whole juventus career and did the same for maradona Goals from set pieces only accounted for 30% of platinis total haul while goals from set pieces accounted for 58% of maradonas Napoli goal tally If we narrow this down further to league only(disregarding FKs and only counting penalties) Maradona 30 penalties out of 81 Serie A goals in 188 games: 0.27 open play goals per match Michel Platini 10 penalties out of 68 Serie A goals in 147 games: 0.39 open goals per match
Simply because those were the only years they all coincided at the same time in the same arenas. I’m not interested what they did in years where they were playing in different leagues or years apart.
Ok can you prove it? Show me his goal conversation rate, xG of his FKs, the level of shot stopping of all the GKs he had to face in FK situation, in all his carrer. You can't prove it.
We aren’t talking about decades apart they pretty much faced the same defenders in the same league throughout the 1980s even when platini left the dynamic in Italy did not change that much in terms of elite defensive players (offensive players yes) I did not even factor in platinis low proportion of FKs in Serie A and if I did his open play tally would be considerably greater than maradona (maradona scored significantly more FKs and was imo clearly a better set piece specialist but an inferior finisher) Zico is vastly superior to platini in FKs(In absolute numbers he scored over double his career tally In 83/84 zico also hit 6 in 24 matches which is a legendary record platini or maradona did not touch in Italy(neither did Dirceu who never even scored 6 goals in a single league season in Italy between 82-86 let alone 6 freekicks in 24 matches
I funny thing I noticed is 84 -87 is platinis worst years of goal scoring and maradonas best years of scoring but maradona is only ahead by 1 goal This only further confirms my initial point Maradona is overrated as a finisher As a set piece specialist he is amongst the very best though (with a high penalty conversion rate,great FK stats and even a few goals from direct corners) I also noticed maradonas delivery/assists from freekicks from almost any angle even sometime the most improbable was fantastic He was surely one the best passers I ever saw from freekicks (with a clear edge over zico in this category of passing) So maybe I’m downplaying maradonas unique ability to influence a match with his set pieces or maybe I’m not and he is overrated as a finisher
In fact I was off by one free kick from Diceu, who had converted 5 free kicks in 23 appearances in 1986-87. Like I said, the differences are marginal.
It doesn’t really matter because both guys hit double figures in the first 4 consecutive seasons, which was not accomplished by any other top foreign striker/attacking midfielder in their epoch. That’s a sign of great consistency, with the added bonus of being the most durable foreign players that rarely missed any games.
The only thing that can be proven is that Zico never could score against the top goalkeepers in the world from set-pieces. The argument that he was technically a dead-ball specialist is obvious by his capacity to properly stroke the ball, but by the same token the claim that he was better than the others based on the amount of free kicks scored is invalid. None of the other players faced non-first level professional opponents in order to stat-pad their records like he did. He surely can’t be the best in this aspect if he was unable to defeat the best goalkeepers in his generation. Scoring against ‘John Doe’s’ in the regional State leagues is not the proper measurement of true greatness.
Who were the best GK of set pieces in the World at that time? How many chances he had against them? How distant or and how difficult it was to score that FK? and the others? How they performed? Yes, they faced and they didn't had the same proficiency, that's why Maradona and Platini with way more matches and seasons in the Italian Serie A never could score 6FK in one season with probably much more attempts to do that, which means less sucess rate.
Well Platini and Maradona scored free kicks against some of the most renowned goalkeepers of their day. But if you think scoring the majority of free kicks against ‘John Doe’s’ in the Brazilian State regional leagues, when Brazilian goalkeepers and defenders were never known for being top class over the world, then suit yourself buddy.
Very true indeed Goalkeepers are known to go through rich veins of form (even ones that play for lowly serie a clubs)and great ones even go though rough patches so his argument is very weak unless he can prove the circumstances behind every single FK I think zicos FK record will stand for a very long until another set piece phenomenon comes along Some fan boys got excited recently and declared Messi with 8 freekicks in 2018 as all time record as if time started in the year 2000 Nobody recorded zicos total FK tally but we know he scored approximately 62 fk for Flamengo alone,half a dozen in Italy and some more in Asia aswell Messi is behind on 41 yet the press declared an all time record
Thread on free-kick takers. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/top-free-kick-takers-of-all-time.1980801/
Now to conclude this brilliant effort of the Rummenigge years from 1980-1986 vs the top ranked sides. 1980 vs Poland 3-1 ranked 10 Kicker — “Rummenigge was the most dangerous attacker, although not so effective in the second half” West Germany ranked 1 1980 vs Czechoslovakia 1-0 ranked 8 Kicker — “Although agile, but for long stretches did not seem easy-going and courageous as he’s had us accustomed for months. He wasn’t in form from the start. After his goal he improved and helped to stabilize his defense. Overall, clearly the best German player” West Germany ranked 1 1980 vs Netherlands 3-2 ranked 3 Mundo Deportivo — [...] great players like Rummenigge, skilled in his unique dribbling, opportune in leaving defenders in his wake, intelligent in his cover[...] Kicker — “was marked from the start by Hovenkamp. As a result, he struck quick like lightning [...] Enormous self-confidence, with almost perfect ball handling skills at the highest tempo. Hard to stop. Again, very good performance” West Germany ranked 1 1980 vs Belgium 2-1 ranked 7 Mundo Deportivo 4/6 - good Kicker — “even though Rummenigge did not reach the level of previous months, he was still voted the best player of the tournament” West Germany ranked 1 1980 vs Netherlands 1-1 ranked 6 Kicker — “Had to deal with the uncompromising Brandts (Dutch marker). Most of the time there were two Dutch defenders around him. That’s why his otherwise dreadful spurts and dribbles were unsuccessful. Rummenigge did not like the hard way of playing of the Dutch. He was miles away from the world-class form he had shown so often” West Germany ranked 1 1981 vs Argentina 1-2 ranked 4 Mundo Deportivo — “Rummenigge, better than Maradona” “Rummenigge was the star of the main German attacks. He showed intelligence, capacity to direct the tactics of play and the extraordinary skill at dribbling but wasn’t always well surrounded [...]” Kicker — “several times he beat the Argentinian defense. But he came too often from the left flank, and from bad positions. Underscored his world class without achieving absolute top form” El Gráfico 9/10 - excellent West Germany ranked 1 1981 vs Brazil 1-4 ranked 2 Folha De São Paulo — “For the Germans, Rummenigge was the best. Talented, fighter, was in all sectors of attack, always kept the Brazilian defense concerned...” Kicker — “much of the time he spent as the sole act against the Brazilian defense. He won many duels.... had to work hard, but was lucky and unsuccessful” El Gráfico 8/10 - very good West Germany ranked 1 1981 vs Austria 2-0 ranked 11 Kicker — “Rummenigge didn’t come into play until Shuster took care of the pace and created space. His dribblings were stopped many times. But clearly he will come visible again” West Germany ranked 1 1981 vs Brazil 1-2 ranked 1 Folha De São Paulo — “Briegel and Rummenigge were the principle players of West Germany. Dangerous, they created the most difficult chances for the Brazilian defense.” Folha De São Paulo — good Kicker — “quick as an arrow, tricky and easy going, in tune with Breitner. In the middle of the park however he got lost” West Germany ranked 2 1981 vs Poland 2-0 ranked 4 Kicker — “Brilliant combination between Breitner and Rummenigge” “Through Rummenigge once again went most of the danger to the opponents goal” West Germany ranked 2 1981 3-1 vs Austria ranked 8 Kicker — “certainly has had better games for the NT. But he again shown how valuable he is for the team. Especially his sprints to create and open space again impressed. This time we can only criticize his lack of scoring” West Germany ranked 2 1982 vs Czechoslovakia 2-1 ranked 11 Kicker — “Rummenigge was lacking his old self. No wonder after the long break” “Rummenigge’s injury obviously not cured yet” (He would not be fully fit at WC 1982) West Germany ranked 1 1982 vs Austria 1-0 ranked 7 France Football 1/6 very bad El Gráfico 4/10 bad Mundo Deportivo 0/6 terrible (every player was graded in this match with a 0) West Germany ranked 2 1982 vs England 0-0 ranked 3 France Football 3/6 average Mundo Deportivo 2/6 mediocre El Gráfico 4/10 - bad Gazzetta 5/10 mediocre Kicker — “Rummenigge seemed inhibited and undecided” West Germany ranked 2 1982 vs France 3-3 ranked 7 France Football 4/6 - good Mundo Deportivo 5/6 - very good El Gráfico 8/10 very good New York Times Then West Germany and France staged another classic, the first penalty-kick shootout ever in the cup semifinals. West Germany came back from a 3-1 deficit in overtime to tie the ''Brazilians of Europe,'' 3-3, and then beat them, five penalty kicks to four. In coming off the bench, Rummenigge performed courageously and inspirationally. Rummenigge's entrance into the game with France, at his suggestion, was one of the most dramatic and important substitutions a team could make in a championship game. It was as electrifying as the appearance of the injured Willis Reed just before the New York Knicks won the basketball championship in 1970. ''Really, his entrance was decisive,'' Derwall said. ''He is such a good player that when he goes on the field, his teammates recover their spirit.'' West Germany ranked 2 1982 vs Italy 1-3 ranked 4 France Football 3/6 - average Mundo Deportivo 1/6 - bad El Gráfico 5/10 - mediocre Kicker — “Played virtually the entire tournament injured. In the final it was visibly clear that the thigh strain severely handicapped him” West Germany ranked 2 1982 vs Belgium 0-0 ranked 13 Kicker — [...] The captain again and again attacked the Belgian defense but failed to beat Pfaff (Belgian goalkeeper). From then on the entire team followed pursuit [...] True Rummenigge in his dual function of conductor and attacker breathed new life as the game went on but in the beginning was silent” West Germany ranked 3 1982 vs England 2-1 ranked 4 Kicker — “tried in the first half as (...?) but did not succeed. After the break the Munich player succeeded with two technical finishes that won the game” West Germany ranked 3 1983 vs Austria 0-0 ranked 10 Kicker — “Rummenigge’s game suffered from (...?) the midfield and it arrived too late and he was set apart. Especially isolated in the first half from the rest. His header ruled out was unfortunately not awarded because it was a brilliant finish. Since he played exclusively almost in the middle his defender Krauss had too much free space in his defense [...] West Germany ranked 3 1983 vs Yugoslavia 4-2 ranked 14 Kicker — “only really got going after the break, some rough tackles from his opponents probably earned his respect. Became aggressive again and scored a goal from a glittering advance” West Germany ranked 4 1983 vs Austria 3-0 ranked 10 (Kicker makes a brief mention that Voeller had his best game and that Schumacher and Rummenigge had been ‘strong’, followed close by Schuster. Rummenigge did score in this match.) West Germany ranked 3 1984 vs Belgium 1-0 ranked 7 Kicker — “And Rummenigge ? As soon as he puts on the NT jersey he’s become a scapegoat in recent years. Ever becoming rarer are the scenes that once made him deadly: his dribbling that left opponents for dead with his blazing tornado runs.” West Germany ranked 2 1984 vs France 0-1 ranked 5 Kicker — [...] “Rummenigge (improved)” (Not much is mentioned, although it seems he’s improved it’s no longer the Rummenigge of old) [France were missing Platini, Giresse and Tigana] West Germany ranked 2 1984 vs Italy 1-0 ranked 11 Kicker — “operated less as a midfielder and more as a withdrawn forward. Always strong on the ball once he sprung forward in attack. Got a taste of the Italian defenders that he’ll have to face every weekend” West Germany ranked 2 1984 vs Spain 0-1 ranked 14 Mundo Deportivo 3/6 - average Kicker — “Rummenigge seemed more agile than previously but the captain committed too many errors” (Apparently he had an off day and Germany bowed out of Euro ‘84) West Germany ranked 2 1985 vs Sweden 2-2 ranked 8 Kicker - 3 average “The birthday boy was at his strongest at dribbling which caused problems for the Swedish defense. His rough assignment was striking. He was not too bad even at helping out his own defense” West Germany ranked 3 1986 vs Italy 2-1 ranked 8 Guerin Sportivo 6/10 decent Kicker - 4 mediocre West Germany ranked 6 1986 vs Brazil 2-0 ranked 6 Folha De São Paulo 9/10 (man of the match) “Without Rummenigge, the team fell” “Commanded the team in the first half. Injured he did not return in the second half and the team’s performance severely dropped” Kicker - 4 mediocre Kicker — “Doesn’t have the appearance of earlier days and therefore doesn’t dare so much. He often got stuck and his partnership with Mill did not work. At halftime he retired injured” West Germany ranked 7 1986 vs Scotland 2-1 ranked 15 Mundo Deportivo 3/6 average Kicker — not rated (Played few minutes) West Germany ranked 4 1986 vs Denmark 0-2 ranked 4 El Gráfico 5/10 - mediocre Mundo Deportivo 2/6 mediocre Kicker — not rated (Played few minutes) West Germany ranked 6 1986 vs Mexico 0-0 ranked 9 El Gráfico 5/10 mediocre Guerin Sportivo 5/10 - mediocre France Football 3/6 mediocre Kicker 4 = mediocre Corriere 5,5/10 mediocre West Germany ranked 8 1986 vs France 2-0 ranked 1 France Football 2/6 - mediocre Mundo Deportivo 2/6 - mediocre El Gráfico 5/10 - mediocre Kicker - 4 mediocre Gazzetta 5,5/10 mediocre Guerin Sportivo 5/10 mediocre West Germany ranked 8 1986 vs Argentina 2-3 ranked 3 El Gráfico 6/10 - decent Clarin 6/10 - decent France Football 3/6 - average Corriere 6/10 - average Mundo Deportivo 2/6 - mediocre Kicker 4 = mediocre Gazzetta 6/10 average Guerin Sportivo 7/10 good West Germany ranked 4
Before I conclude with my final observations, I’d like to thank Gregoriak for the German Kicker newspapers. I tried to get the essence of the translation to the best of my knowledge but there could be some errors. A final comparison between Rummenigge and Zico will follow shortly to determine the winner.
1982 vs England 2-1 ranked 4 Kicker — “tried in the first half as (...?) but did not succeed. After the break the Munich player succeeded with two technical finishes that won the game” "Tried in the first half as stimulator/booster but did not succeed." 1983 vs Austria 0-0 ranked 10 Kicker — “Rummenigge’s game suffered from (...?) the midfield and it arrived too late and he was set apart. "Rummenigge's game suffered from midfield passes coming not quickly enough so that he was often off-side." (whenever you translate something as "set apart" it means off-side in this football context). 1983 vs Yugoslavia 4-2 ranked 14 Kicker — “only really got going after the break, some rough tackles from his opponents probably earned his respect. Became aggressive again and scored a goal from a glittering advance” ....scored a goal after a brilliant assist by Waas. 1985 vs Sweden 2-2 ranked 8 Kicker - 3 average His rough assignment was striking. Striking was his great commitment.
To be honest I never looked up details of his 1982 injury issues, but just knew (and could sense from watching) that he wasn't in the best shape in the WC. Interesting to note the description for the Czechoslovakia match, not long before this (only highlights but he does seem in top shape/form much moreso in this big game, with his contributions crucial to goals scored):