The greatest 1980s NT player vs the elite and darkhorse teams

That’s right. Their H2H encounters ended in mediocre to substandard individual displays. However, as I’ve pointed out before, Rummenigge probably hit lows worse than any of the top 4 players in question, but Zico was the guy that cost and deprived Brazil from snatching glory, by his decisive errors (CA79 red card and PK miss at WC86) in comparison to more than any of the others. Zico also does not have a marquee performance in any way in any knockout stage for his country that was either decisive or inspirational. Rummenigge has his semifinal vs France in 1982 to lean on at least.

According to the New York Times, this was how it was viewed at the time:

“Then West Germany and France staged another classic, the first penalty-kick shootout ever in the cup semifinals. West Germany came back from a 3-1 deficit in overtime to tie the ''Brazilians of Europe,'' 3-3, and then beat them, five penalty kicks to four. In coming off the bench, Rummenigge performed courageously and inspirationally.”

“Rummenigge's entrance into the game with France, at his suggestion, was one of the most dramatic and important substitutions a team could make in a championship game. It was as electrifying as the appearance of the injured Willis Reed just before the New York Knicks won the basketball championship in 1970.”

''Really, his entrance was decisive,'' Derwall said. ''He is such a good player that when he goes on the field, his teammates recover their spirit.''

So here we have a situation that without Rummenigge’s interventions, West Germany never make the final in Madrid.

We don’t have any similar decisive performance from
Zico, neither at that stage or at level of determination. What’s also overlooked is that Rummenigge was carrying a thigh injury at that WC, only to make matters more impressive, in the context of events.

On a whole a lot of info is missing regarding Rummenigge because with the exception of some “Kicker” magazines that I own at the WC, little else is available of his entire body of work vs the top 15 ranked sides. I can only obtain mostly Euro and WC information, with some friendlies but overall a lot is missing.

In any event, I’ll post what I have. But understand this: his lows are probably lower than Zico’s but his highs are more significant, especially that semifinal that holds more weight than anything Zico produced at any WC.

 

This is excellent and thanks for sharing.

I noticed from some magazines I own that when they rated German players, they used the method of rating from 1-6 with 1 being outstanding while 6 insufficient. That’s my understanding if I’m not mistaken. It’s different from the other sources like France Football or Mundo Deportivo that used it in the opposite direction.

 

Zico vs Rummenigge, in their H2H encounters, according to the press voices. They only faced eachother twice.


Rummenigge’s review

1977 vs Brazil 1-1 ranked 3
Folha De São Paulo said he did not appear (in reference to being a nonfactor) and still needed to prove his worth as a starter.

Grade
Folha De São Paulo 4/10 - bad


1981 vs Brazil 1-2 ranked 1
Folha De São Paulo — “Briegel and Rummenigge were the principle players of West Germany. Dangerous, they created the most difficult chances for the Brazilian defense.”

Folha De São Paulo — good

Kicker — “quick as an arrow, tricky and easy going, in tune with Breitner. In the middle of the park however he got lost”

(Note: my German is not good so the translation may have errors - maybe Greg wants to correct me if he spots any errors, thanks)


Zico’s review

1977 vs West Germany 1-1 ranked 1
Jornal dos Sports 3/5 average
Folha de São Paulo 3/10 Very Bad
Helmut Shoen (German manager) - very bad

Kicker — “Zico was in chains” (In reference to Bonhof shutting him down)


1981 vs West Germany 2-1 ranked 2
Folha De São Paulo — disappointing
Jornal dos Sports - good

Kicker — [...] “Briegel then locked down on Zico, who until then had been barely visible” (this was the most that I was able to make out in regards to any mentioning of Zico by the German newspaper)

Conclusions: contrary to what I had previously thought, Rummenigge does come out favorably in their H2H, thanks to his better performance in 1981 which is supported by two sources.

Although this doesn’t necessarily settle the debate, it does give an extra bonus in Rummenigge’s favor.

More on Rummenigge’s performances vs the top 15 later on.

 

Valid observations of the circumstances of the match. But what about the inspiration that Derwall spoke about Rummenigge reviving the spirit of the team ?

And does Zico compare in any KO match ?

This was as good as he offered in my view:


But it’s a notch below in impact and stage vs an already half eliminated Argentinian team.

 

Thanks.

I’ll continue to give it a try with Rummenigge’s other reviews that are in question. Interestingly, I’ve already spotted that ‘Kicker’ is more critical with some of his performances than some outside neutral sources.

 

Originally I missed one other game in their H2H encounters: 1978 Brazil vs West Germany 1-0

West Germany ranked 1; Brazil ranked 3

Zico
Jornal dos Sports - very good
Folha de São Paulo - decent
Kicker - decent

Kicker — “Although Bonhof prevailed against Zico in the first half, but the longer the game went on, the Brazilian won his duals”

Folha De São Paulo — the newspaper made it clear that Zico lacked more sense of penetration to accompany his teammates, but had been severely subjected to the man-marking of Bonhoff, but still moved well around the pitch, but made little impact.

It’s evident that Bonhof continued his mission to mark him out of the game as in Rio, but with mixed results this time. Overall Zico and Bonhof ended in a personal stalemate this time around.

Rummenigge
In Rummenigge’s case there really is little mentioning of his play from both sides, evidently little impact he must have had.

 

Thanks.

I’m almost finished reviewing his matches and will post them chronologically once completed.

 

As previously mentioned, the review of Rummenigge vs the top 15 ranked teams in the world.

I’ll do this in two parts, first from 1976 (his debut) to 1979. Then conclude from 1980-1986, his retirement from the NT.

(I’ll add some personal notes in parentheses if necessary)


1976-1979

1976 vs Czechoslovakia 2-0 ranked 4
Kicker — “didn’t reach the level of his debut against Wales. He seemed very nervous in his first home game. He was hesitant and lacked self-confidence. Later on he got into some nice moments”

(Half the Czech team was different from the team that won Euro 1976; the Germans were missing some key players too)

West Germany ranked 1


1977 vs Argentina 3-1 ranked 7
(Came on as a substitute but little is mentioned)

West Germany ranked 1


1977 vs Brazil 1-1 ranked 3
Folha De São Paulo said he did not appear (in reference to being a nonfactor) and still needed to prove his worth as a starter.

Folha De São Paulo 4/10 - bad

(Kicker does not mention much)

West Germany ranked 1


1977 vs Italy ranked 2-1 ranked 6
Kicker — “the most dangerous offensive German. Before the half his long sprints were slowed down once only by extremely unfair means [...] he was awesome and strong on the ball”

West Germany ranked 1


1978 vs England 2-1 ranked 8
German Press Agentur — “Rummenigge was the most impressive German”

Stuttgarter Zeitung — “Rummenigge deserves unrestricted trust”

West Germany ranked 1


1978 vs Soviet Union 1-0 ranked 11
(Little is mentioned)

West Germany ranked 1


1978 vs Brazil 0-1 ranked 3
Gregoriak’s words:
The only mention he gets is "on the left wing Rummenigge's dribbling skill is an unprofitable art."

West Germany ranked 1


1978 vs Italy 0-0 ranked 4
France Football 3/6 - average
El Gráfico 6/10 decent
Mundo Deportivo 4/6 good

Kicker — “in the first half was marked closely by Cabrini. He was always strong and quick when determined. After the half, however, he fell back into his old weak, too much with his excessive criss-cross dribble that led to nowhere”

West Germany ranked 1


1978 vs Netherlands 2-2 ranked 2
France Football 4/6 - good
El Gráfico 6/10 decent
Mundo Deportivo 3/6 mediocre

Kicker — [...] “while, Rummenigge too often stopped the game” (could be a reference in a negative way, but not sure — not much more is elaborated on him)

West Germany ranked 3


1978 vs Austria 2-3 ranked 15
France Football 4/6 - good

Kicker — “fought undaunted until the end but had his off day again. Only once when he scored the 1-0 was he wide awake. Otherwise most of his attacks were futile because he took too long”

West Germany ranked 1


1978 vs Czechoslovakia 4-3 ranked 12
Kicker — “was a nightmare for the opposition. The Czechs were only able to stop his runs through fouls. From 12 resulting free kicks and one penalty, 3 German goals were made, thanks to him. He has never played this well for the NT”

(Both sides not the same as Euro 1976 with mostly different rosters)

West Germany ranked 4


1978 vs Netherlands 3-1 ranked 2
(‘Kicker’ mentions Rummenigge involved in many of the dangerous plays that especially led to goals. Apparently he played relatively well)

West Germany ranked 4


1979 vs Argentina 2-1 ranked 5
Kicker — [...] when that worked out after the break, it was mostly Rummenigge in his element. He quickly used the free space because his speed and ball skills were so great”

[Apparently once the Germans had gotten the edge Rummenigge’s game grew and in open space he thrived thanks to his natural abilities]

(Argentina fielded a B side missing the majority of their stars — only two WC players from 1978 and no Maradona)

West Germany ranked 2


1979 vs Soviet Union 3-1 ranked 14
Kicker — “This time operated in his favorite role in the midfield attack. He quickly became the most dangerous attacker, even if he initially attempted too often futile slalom runs. His two goals were glorious and a third almost succeeded”

(The Soviets, as in the case with Zico in 1976, fielded many inexperienced players, including many under-21 age players and a debuting goalkeeper that never again was called up. The Germans were also missing some key players)

West Germany ranked 1


(Any corrections from the German translation is welcome from Gregoriak if necessary)

 

Some observations: Rummenigge from 1976 to 1979 competed against 14 top ranked sides, with West Germany usually top ranked in the world.

It is generally accepted that he played well vs Italy 1977; vs England 1978; vs Czechoslovakia 1978; vs Netherlands 1978 (friendly); vs Argentina 1979; vs USSR 1979

That’s 6 games out of 14, which is 42 percent.

In comparison Zico from 1976 to 1979 competed against 18 top 15 ranked sides with Brazil usually ranked number 1 in the world.

In was generally accepted that he performed well vs Argentina 1976, USSR 1976, vs England 1977, vs Scotland 1977, vs Czechoslovakia 1978; vs England 1978, vs Argentina 1979 (home match)

That’s 7 games out of 18 which makes for 38 percent.

Thus far Zico continues to not come out favorably in this exercise. To make matters more alarming is that out of those 7 matches, Zico’s best game was probably vs Scotland, a number 4 ranked side, but criticized for being a second-rate European power with little experience playing abroad in South American environments such as that at the Maracaná stadium in Rio.

On the other hand, Rummenigge’s highs seem to be greater than Zico’s but some of his best performances came against teams that were not fielding their strongest line-ups. However, his top class display vs the Italians in 1977 was noteworthy because the Italians were mostly intact and ranked number 6 in the world.

In addition, although WC78 was unsuccessful for both Zico and Rummenigge, the fact of the matter is that Zico’s lows were more concerning than Rummenigge’s uneven performances; further compounded by Zico’s unreliable durability to stay match-fit.

1976-1979 who was better?

Based on the evidence, without neither reaching glorious heights, but with Rummenigge having a slightly better WC78 and reaching higher reviews in general, the German leads for now.

Verdict: Rummenigge

1980-1986 shall soon follow.

 

Well, you’d have to define technique, mate.

According to a British book I was given to in 1979, the definition of technique is addressed in the following manner


Under that criteria I don’t see where Rummenigge is inferior.

In regards to Zico’s on-field intelligence, it’s telling how that was addressed in comparison with Maradona by the German player, Jürgen Grabowski, Cesar Menotti and Helenio Herrera in 1982.

I mentioned this years ago:

Prior to WC82 the German magazine of Kicker sent Jurgen Grabowski to watch Maradona and Zico in South America when both played friendlies against West Germany, and was asked to compare them both. Both players had been marked by Matthaeus, and his report concluded that Maradona’s attitude was greater. He said: “Once Maradona comprehended that he couldn’t do it on his own and that there wasn’t anything that he could do, he let the game flow through his teammates so that they wouldn’t depend solely on him. He was more intelligent than Zico. Even then, he produced great passes with long range. I think we are in presence of a fantastic player, with a great future.”

Menotti compared them in March of 1982 and came to a similar conclusion as the German: “Maradona has more qualities than Zico. Against West Germany, Zico was tightly marked and he lacked recourses to escape his marker. Maradona on the other hand, is quicker, has more ideas. Inclusively, if he can’t with his marker, he retreats far back into his own half dragging his marker with him which opens space for his teammates. In a group, it’s more difficult to hold Maradona down than Zico. In Rio, Matthaeus shut Zico down without having to force himself too much.”

Helenio Herrera’s view in June of 1982 was in regards to the transfer of Maradona to play in Spain, and this is what he said: It’s a good transfer. Maradona is a player with initiative, and possesses a virtue above the rest: he knows how to escape from the man-marking of the European defender. That’s very important. For example, if Zico would have been the choice, I would have said no, because he doesn’t know how to do it.”

He repeated this in July of 1983: “I don’t believe in Zico. Maradona is better at releasing himself from the shackles of defenders, he has more change of pace, rhythm, and is more intelligent.”

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/is...best-player-ever.1784415/page-2#post-25970866

 

Well in terms of skill-sets we don’t entirely share the same views, although in some respects you have some valid points.

In terms of the 1983-84 season, it’s not entirely correct to compare Zico with any future stars that arrived to Serie A, specifically taken into account that 1983-84 produced an outlier of higher goal scoring ratio than following seasons. You don’t know exactly how Rummenigge would have fared had he played in that season — all we know is Rummenigge in his debut season in 1984-85 was better than Zico that year, whom was always unreliable.

Furthermore, it’s been already established that Udinese in 1983-84 were never a mediocre team for Italian standards, rated top 4 by Guerin Sportivo prior to the start to the campaign, only ranked right behind Inter Milano.

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/is...midfielder-of-all-time.2087266/#post-37142657

In addition, you put too much stock into Zico’s goals from free kicks, when the majority arrived against semiprofessional/amateur teams at State level, with obscure goalkeepers and defensive walls that were assembled in his path. And even though I accept his technical mastery at set-pieces, I can attest that he rarely beat top goalkeepers around the world from dead-ball situations.

So what do you prefer: a player that banged in 50 free kicks vs unknown goalkeepers and defenders ? Or the guy that hit 25 vs top class renowned goalkeepers and defenders in top flight leagues around the globe ?

At the NT level who did he beat ? Dasaev ? Miguel Ángel González Suárez ? Maier ? Schumacher ? Bats ? Fillol ? Clemence ? Zoff ? Arconada ? Bento ? Nope! Only vs Alan Rough, a very criticized goalkeeper from Scotland (second-rate European power) that barely moved off his line.

You try to look for a top class goalkeeper around the world from his era that he beat from the free kick and it’s hard to find.

It’s not how many you can make but who you make it against and when what matters that counts. In that regard, Zico’s 60 free kicks, as you mentioned, holds little weight in my view.

 

I appreciate the effort and understand you have a soft spot for him but realistically speaking, I’m not too impressed about how he achieved his major accomplishments or feats: 1981 Copa Libertadores handed to Flamengo in the most unbelievable circumstances, with a corrupt official in Mr Jose Wright. In addition, avoided the path of Argentinian and Uruguayan sides as well. The National Championships in Brazil were also obtained with controversy written all over it.

The 6 free kicks you mentioned at Serie A, not only equaled by Dirceu in the same era, but most of them coming against newly promoted Catanzaro, Avellino and Genoa, teams at the bottom of the barrel. Never once did he beat the Zoff’s, Tancredi’s, Zenga’s or Tacconi’s of his day. The Platini and Maradona’s nailed 5 free kicks once in a season, which was only one lower making the difference marginal.

At the NT level he never made the difference against a top ranked team at the World Cup and even less so in a KO round. Brazil were virtually unbeatable in his epoch and not once made it to a final. Twice it can be said he cost Brazil to go further in pursuit of titles in 1979 and 1986.

Basically all of what you say sounds dandy but closer scrutiny reveals it did not translate to major triumphs in legitimate ways and his major exploits arrived against mostly obscure goalkeepers and defenders that you yourself wouldn’t be able to identify as being considered as world class around the globe.

Frankly, he could have scored 100 free kicks in his career or not, but it wouldn’t impress me because it wasn’t produced against the best defensive schemes and goalkeepers around the world. It’s very telling that at club level and NT he rarely if ever beat a renowned world class goalkeeper from the free kick.