The Fuzzy logic of USMNT coaching

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Sam Hamwich, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Oh man. Where to start?

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  2. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    #52 Sam Hamwich, Jun 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
    How about the backline.

    Gonzo and ream are terrible defenders. Gonzo had his moments 5 years ago. Now he is slow, accident prone and unable to move laterally with ease. Ream, always a uSMNT loser. Good pro.

    THe next fun problem for me is placing not 1, not 2 but 4 central midfielders on the pitch and then not in any way controlling midfield!, Roldan Yueill, Trapp, and Mihailovic couldn't not connect 5 foot or 30 foot passes. they couldnt posses, trap, dribble.

    I am all for starting and trying new formations. I like seeing new players. But a simple 4-4-1-1 would have sufficed for the young kids. Then our 4 CM's could just run into each other all match...wait?

    I never thought I would see it, but the 3-6-1 that dominated the 1998 World Cup for the US is back. Glad we learned from that one as well.
     
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  3. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    #53 Sam Hamwich, Jun 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
    Many, many guys, maybe everyone on these boards knows soccer from a technical perspective better than I could ever hope to. I follow patterns, logic, and questioning. Inquisitiveness more often than not can be more powerful than logic.

    To wit:

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    This is before the 3rd goal. Steffen on an island on the first goal and plays to his CB / DM. The next goal was another, where is my defensive midfield again? moment. Defense made to look bad. But the #3 goal takes the cake for F*ck off player positioning and forethought. It reminds me very much of the no pressure give away by MB against Portugal. No pressure. Seven players holding a cotillion drink party on the touch line. Honestly. Why? Why do we keep making the same mistakes? This is not learning the system level. This is terrible awareness from professional soccer players years into their careers.
     
  4. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    THis is probably how I would line it up:

    ------------------Alitdore-----------------
    ----------------------------Pulisic----------------
    ------Boyd---------McK--------------Lima------
    -----------------------Adams------------------------
    ---Lovitz--------Miazga-----Zimmerman----wil trap-----

    We have better LB and RB in our pool, but we didn't bring them.
     
  5. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Call out to @Bob Morocco ! Way to go!

    No MB in your lineup. Panel questions you and you don't back down.
     
  6. CyphaPSU

    CyphaPSU Member+

    Mar 16, 2003
    Not Far
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow, unbelievable how many red shirts are packed together within about 5% of the field’s surface area. It fits with what I think I was seeing in that guys do not seem to fully know where to be at various times during the run of play.
     
  7. akattack

    akattack Member

    Aug 5, 2007
    Shrewsbury
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    That sure looks like a team that has to shift between a 4 man back line and a 3 man back line mid play while CMs rotate and there is no left back and and and.....yeah maybe they haven't learned the tactics.
     
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  8. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Don't be surprised if after his fanciful dalliance with the 3-6-1 come 3-1-2-1-1-1, inspired roster selection, and a long conversation with his alter egos, the Bruce Bradley Cover band shows up with a plain vanilla 4-4-2 in the match against Papayana and wins 4-1 or 5-2 or something.

    I can't wait! It means we are world beaters again.

    Anyone think Adams was 80% decided his life as a RB was beneath him and that decreased to 10% ?
     
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  9. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Good News!

    The Bruce Bradley Reunion Tour is back. And with the MLS backing band as a special guest.

    Rather than try and play their own material, they rolled out the old chestnuts we've come to love and adore (as expected, see post above), like the 4-1-4-1 that took the Caribbean by storm.
     
  10. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This is certainly funny. But don't you think you're being a little hard on GGG? Give him a chance. He'll succeed or fail, and then the next step will taken. But it seems like you have an axe to grind with him.
     
  11. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    To be very simplistic: at which point is a mistake a mistake? At which point can you question it? At which point is the mistake an indicator of a greater problem?

    For better or worse going back to 2006 you can see almost the exact same mistakes made by BA and BB in GGGs coaching. I mean literally the exact same mistakes. They made no sense then and people like me pointed it out and they make even less sense now.

    I have only one definition of stupidity : not learning from mistakes.
     
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  12. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    We should have been doing this ever since Brasil.

    Some on here even called for it. Many times!;)
     
  13. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    He really has become a symbol for all that is wrong with USSoccer.
     
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  14. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Everyone is so happy! we hung a half dozen on an island population smaller than Dallas Tx. Not even including Ft. Worth.

    People on the forums are telling you they 'looked' great. We saw so much 'effort.' That's the US I like to look at!

    Rubbish and Garbage.

    This was a vintage Bob Bradley empty bucket for his son and it was the kind of transition defending and central midfield defending that gets you beat 4-2 by a moderately good mexico team and spanked 5-0 by Chile. Let's see why:
     
  15. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    #65 Sam Hamwich, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    These posts will be title, Hello, I am a dedicate central midfield defender and I am a left back!

    Bob's empty bucket of chicken runners

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    This is a 2 on 5. Where is my central defense? No worry, my left back will certainly get to this ball against the man not even on the screen...or will he?

    [​IMG]

    He's got it

    [​IMG]

    Um, no. he don't got it.

    [​IMG]

    I play defensive midfielder and I play left back.

    [​IMG]

    I play defensive midfielder and I play left back.

    [​IMG]

    Um, transition defense might have been in order here.

    [​IMG]

    THis one is my favorite because it brings up one of my favorite moments, World Cup 2010, I play defensive midfielder, but Birsa (?) gets a free shot top of the key and buries it.

    [​IMG]

    My point is simple, if T&T was less G&T on the night, we would have been scored on 3 or 4 times.

    If the US plays like this against ANY quality team they will get beat easily.

    But it looked great!
     
  16. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    The US played a shockingly bad game of transition defending, central marking and the left back is a physical and mental liability.

    Any coach with some basic understanding will take advantage of our left back and our poorly organized, poorly defended central midfield.
     
  17. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    I figured you guys wanted these old gems. What I like most of all is how much we've learned as a country and as coaches.

    [​IMG]

    whoops, am I central defender?

    [​IMG]

    someone please tell me that was Donovan's man to shut down, I dare you.
     
  18. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    And in case there was any doubt on the second goal in that game, here it goes. This is exactly what you get with this formation and this player as a dedicated central defender. See if you can even spot him. Same mistakes, over and over and over again, by coaches and player.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Time to dust off this old nugget. The thesis of this thread is that 1. US coaches never really test themselves 2. make obvious mistakes because of this reason and 3. never learn until it is too late.

    Beerholder has coached against Tata before. He has played against Mexico before. He should know what he is about...and yet, and yet...I can see one of two things happening:

    1. He runs out some whacky formation to insure the midfield looks terrible. You say, don't be ridiculous, no coach would ever do this...he would if he had new players and had different 'system' characteristics for them. He would if he had never been challenged properly as a coach. He would if he wanted to keep his veterans who aren't starting happy.

    2. He roles out vanilla 4-4-2 since there are many new players who can then focus on playing against a talented team.

    The next big issue will be the pace and intensity of the team. Will we see a high press? Will the midfield not contest until midfield? Will the defense hold a high line? Does CP play on the right look to cut in and feed some striker? Does he start on the left and cut in to shoot? Does he play off the main striker or as floating play maker?

    I've given up trying to predict which whimsical fancy will play LB and RB and DM and Striker.

    Let's see what the cat drags home.
     
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  20. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    It brought home a 3-0 defeat and more perplexing it answered so many questions that should never have been asked in the first place.

    Beerholders professional inexperience and well meaning tactical stupidity might just get the US booted from the WC again.
     
  21. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    The USMNT have a RB starting in UCL competitions. He is youg and promising. It is his first match with the team. THe press, media, and probably teammates have high hopes. High expectations. Is he the next big player in the pool.

    F***cking Beerholders response to this promising RB: Let's see how he plays on the left. ON THE LEFT!!! That's your introduction to the US soccer system, you will get shoved into a position you don't play in your first match. Bob Bradley did the same thing with Timmy Chandler even though he is the best RB on the break, crossing at full tilt. Left back. Idiots.

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is almost as if "Idiocracy" was taken as a template for "Best Business Pratices" by the USSF.
     
  23. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Look, I am not going to overstate this: The USMNT is a disgrace. By implication US Soccer is a disgrace. The soccer being played from U14 to U23 is a disgrace.
    The coaching in the youth ranks in the US is a disgrace. The lack of organization from top to bottom is a disgrace.

    If everyone can agree with this, then I think progress can be made, if not, then I don't see any significant improvement for US soccer as a whole for the next 20 years.
     
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  24. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    #74 Sam Hamwich, Sep 7, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
    If anyone has the stomach, Moreno at ESPNFC, not always a hot bed of tactical analysis, absolutely eviscerates Beerholder with the simplest analysis in the world.
     
  25. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    @jond

    This was a great post. I started an entire thread based on the systemic failures created by forcing MB into the DM. Under JK, the dedicated DM prevented many of the asinine early goals against right down the middle that Bob's teams suffered. The worst part of it is, the US coaches are now actively searching out players with MB's profile to play a position he has no business playing. I can't begin to understand the logic behind it, so I've started searching for non-logical reasons.

    "Pretty sure Gregg will change nothing aside from putting a fit Adams at RB, swapping Bradley for Trapp and Jozy for Zardes.

    Although in the GC Gregg genuinely appeared to rate Zardes above Jozy.

    It killed us in failing to qualify last cycle and has repeated for the entire Gregg regime, that being playing a soft DM in Bradley or Trapp, which is causing our other CM's to be pinned back, cutting off the midfield from the attack and limiting any coordinated transition on the counter and to our front 3. Just like last cycle, Pulisic rarely sees a ball played in space in the final 3rd and rarely has options to play to. And these are mostly friendlies. Once the games mean something he'll get the shit hacked out of him.

    Good lord, Lozano received a ball in space going towards goal within his first 30 secs of subbing on, a pass Pulisic didn't receive the entire 90.

    And that again goes back to losing the option of adding a creative mid because we need more steel to cover our toilet paper DM.

    What compounds this nonsense even more is if we were to rate Zardes as a penciled in CF, he would fit a counter attack style. Get on the break and make sure his only touches are in the 18 where it's a strike on goal. But no, Gregg's slow, methodical buildup requires playing a CF who can drop deep and excels with the ball at his feet who you can link off. Zardes is arguably the worst CF in the entire pool for that role. Our players know that. They barely even look for him.

    Making matters worse, the slow methodical buildup is killed if there's no pace, diagonal runs and creativity flowing thru the center of the attack, which opens lanes and space. The slower the buildup the higher the premium on AM/wing creativity and pulling defenders to open gaps. Instead Gregg is employing a stagnant system. Hence we can barely generate a shot, never mind a SOG. The space hasn't been created. The whole point to a more counter attack style is with an unbalanced defense in transition, the gaps have been created. Go away from that and attacking what is essentially a set up defense for the full match, you need to create that thru movement and combinations. But the positioning of our mids and attack under Gregg does absolutely nothing to confront that issue.

    Then I can get into the premise behind Gregg's system requires a DM who can regularly find the ball, turn and transition. Yet Trapp is generally completely invisible. Entirely the wrong choice for the system. And the fullbacks aren't getting forward to stretch the defense and add width/options. I harken back to Fabian at either RB/LB years ago who would regularly link/overlap with our wingers and slice into dangerous areas with the ball. That element is non existent today.

    Since this whole thing sucks right now,a trip down memory lane to when Pulisic had options running off him"
     

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