The Fuzzy logic of USMNT coaching

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Sam Hamwich, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    I think GGG plays this funny RB game until he realizes (gets beat, badly), he needs to make the same mistake Bruce Arena made and protect his QB with a player who can defend for him and a player who can create for him. That's right, I bet we go 3-5-2 eventually.

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  2. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    I agree, and always thought JK did a pretty good job rotating players/rosters (my memory might be hazy, however). I remember he did stick with Alvarado for way too long, but at least he was understanding that we needed new/young CBs. I think Alvarado was paired with Brooks?

    He also "found" Wood, who I disliked for a while and didn't understand why he kept getting chances. But for whatever you think of him, and his career has certainly stalled, I think it was a good move from Klinsy.

    Sure, his coaching was horrendous, and his "methods" were unorthodox. But the more I see/hear about how insular and protected US Soccer is, the more I think maybe he was destined to fail from the start (while admitting he would have failed at some point anyhow since he knew zilch about tactics).
     
  3. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Agree with your post except the last part. JK was given a long leash to implement his ways and a few times had tension with MLS, but he was still allowed to do it his way regardless of the “ establishments” preferences.

    And yes in the end it wouldn’t have mattered as he is the perfect case of someone who’s is a genius as a player yet unable to translate that into successful coaching
     
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  4. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Yes, he was given a long leash, I implied as much (if I didn't, ok, but I agree). My thought is that I'm no longer convinced USSF just wants a good nat'l team. They want a nat'l team built heavily around MLS players. Bruce's tenure (experience COUNTS) and GB's start (we need WT, MB will get the caps record) makes me think it's not solely about performance.
     
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  5. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Anyone notice that it is no longer the 'best' player on the pitch, but the best 'system' player on the pitch?

    Starting on a top 3 bundesliga team? irrelevant, you aren't the right guy for my system. Not fast or physical enough to play on your team? irrelevant, you're the right guy for this system.

    Which itself is not entirely true. For my money the best guy to play the GGG 'system' QB role is not on the roster or will likely ever start again. Come on down, Mr. Graham Zusi!

    He is better defensively than Trapp (Graham puts some nasty in his game under Vermes), a better passer than Adams and doesn't need to be particularly fast because he is always swinging between the CB's legs. Added bonus he can swerve in a killer set piece cross. He is also smarter than any other player I see on the pitch right now. I'd rather see him and nick lima and push adams up the pitch.
     
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  6. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    I'm as done with Zusi as I am with all the other Lions, but spot on with the right "system" guy. I just compared Omar and Bradley on another thread, and questioned why one is bemoaned for his inclusion on the team, and the other is pretty much accepted (and likely even starting tonight). Despite both being poor for the USMNT and their clubs (apparently, I don't want Mexican league) for 18 months. Yet MB needs to be here because #system.

    What system requires a #6 that mostly passes backwards and doesn't defend, is a question for another day.
     
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  7. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    You see @Lance90 this is why I don't really need to see the mistake in the system to know it is a mistake...period.

    Chile is on the road, probably a little tired. Their guys were 'woken-up' by some pretty straight forward McBride/Ching to Donovan with a nice finish. Good goal.

    Chile then proceeded to take control of the match and GGG 'adjusted' to the 3-5-2, but I guess most fancy people call it a 3-4-3 now.

    He did it, just like I said: To help Bradley defend space that he cannot defend. To help Bradley ball win in space he can't protect.

    But this is what really kills me: he sends in a player exactly like bradley to accomplish these tasks.

    If there is a hell, I'm pretty sure it is USMNT coaching by US coaches.
     
  8. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Looked like a 532 by the end of the game last night to me, but if you call the wing backs midfielders you could say they did end up switching to a 352 once it became obvious Chile were firmly in control. At least we didn't have to get our asses handed to us before he switched things up.
     
  9. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Anyone remember this match? Even though we managed only 30% possession vs the staggeringly higher 33% against Chile, we did something I love: We pressed with speed and tenacity all over the pitch. I thought Dave was laying a foundation for the future. Playing younger players. Playing an up tempo, pressing style that genuinely makes teams uncomfortable. As Klopp says: defensive pressure is the best creator.

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  10. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Green performed OK with the USMNT recently. He did notch some goals and he did connect some nice attacking passes. And yet I am a certain was never considered for an instant over such ground breakers as Baird. As lletget. As Will Trapp. As Morris.

    The USMNT / MLS monetary connection should worry players, coaches and administrators. When the court case arrives, I'm good for $1,000.

    Dave Sarachan for all his many, many coaching faults at the very least had the stack to call in the best players and have them play some aggressive pressing football. So, cheers to that old man.
     
  11. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    GB just said the player pool is about 35 players deep.

    Anyone else feel that # is way too small at this stage in the game???
     
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  12. Mantis Toboggan M.D.

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Jul 8, 2017
    Agoos had been arguably our best defender in both international and club play for the 18 months or so leading up to that WC. He strung together a few awful games at the absolute worst possible time, but starting him at CB in that WC (at least for the first 2 games) was 100% the right decision and saying otherwise is pure revisionist history.
     
  13. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    LOL I was a big agoos hater for those 18 months...dude wasn't good enough. it was obvious.

    i also was a big omar gonzalez hater even before he had the worst +/- of any usmnter in brazil and the tnt effup....

    nothing about that is me being revisionist...its just that my opinion is irrelevant.

    as an aisde, i think arena and the usmnt got SO LUCKY that armas got injured before the 2002 WC...woudlve got bounced early if he was in there for every game....
     
  14. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    Many Jamaicans agree with this.

    There were plenty of folks who never liked Agoos.
     
  15. Mantis Toboggan M.D.

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Jul 8, 2017
    He'd had more than his share of ups and downs earlier in his career (often due to coaches trying to play him at LB), but he was in excellent form in 2001 and 2002 up to stepping on the plane for Korea. Not a perfect measure but he was deservedly MLS defender of the year in 2001, and we had no CBs playing in major European leagues at the time.
     
  16. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    Find me one Crew fan from that era that has anything remotely nice to say about Agoos or his play. I loathed him then and I still do today.
     
  17. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    It dawned on me somewhere this weekend after watching another improbably bad day at the office for first touch and defensive structure in MLS that Beerholder is trying to run the team like a freaken hedge fund.

    Where JK was simply tossing in new-agey and holistic spice into what ended up being at the WC anyway a very German like performance of authority, surprise, competitiveness and fitness, Beerholder is going full force hedge fund manager.

    System over Personnel , high 'value' characters despite inferiority, full transparency...I mean I could rip through the catch phrases, but you get the picture.

    I find it odd that American coaches will do just about anything, look anywhere, try anything to avoid...coaching against good coaches in top leagues.

    Gregg Berhalter, the hedge fund coach.
     
  18. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I don't think you have much idea of what hedge funds are. They only exist to get results....
     
  19. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Nice one! always start with a put down.

    Hedge funds, more specifically need to 'get' results higher than the market, otherwise, why use? But more importantly and it's even in the words, they should 'hedge' against possible risk.

    Go back to 2008-2009 see how many accomplished this task.

    But more importantly than all that, they don't produce anything other than a format on which to make decisions. They don't make toasters, software, or any other item in which they have to innovate and out compete...which is my point.

    We have a coach who in his language and action is mimicking an industry that never actually needs to build a product, like let's say a soccer team.

    Jesse Marsch! You beast. You went to Leipzig to learn about europe and now at Salzburg a fantastic town in which I watched Reo Speedwagon and made out with a hot girl. Nothing to see here.

    Way to test yourself as a coach by coaching!
     
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  20. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    It's on another thread, but if anyone hasn't seen that MB 15 second clip against Seattle, go watch it...it's unreal. What other national team would have someone with that performance be guaranteed a time share with will trapp after leading a team to its biggest failure in history. I don't see why anyone is even trying to make sense of this "coaching" or "management", because sense doesn't apply, and really hasn't since Klinsy (not that he had sense, but he at least had authority to select his own players). And that's not even considering bringing back Gonzo (who should never have never seen the field, ever, but certainly not after T&T).
     
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  21. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    Where would I find this?
     
  22. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
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  23. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    I was ready to accept MB as an 8. I think his father and him specifically have put the progress of the USMNT back at least a decade, maybe more and yet I recognized he was valuable up the pitch doing things that had no specific responsibility.

    Then 1. with no one within 3 meters against portugal he gives them the ball which lead to a goal. This was his high water mark of mediocrity in a terrible world cup. 2. he passive aggressived his way into JK getting fired and him playing the 6, which lead to his next high water mark of historic mediocrity, captaining the losing position for entering the world cup.

    His position is guaranteed by a combination of corporate interests, system nepotism and racism. When logical and rational reasons no longer work to explain events, you have to look elsewhere.
     
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  24. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
  25. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    #50 Sam Hamwich, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
    Could it be?! Yes it can!

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/05/20/armchair-analyst-look-usmnts-provisional-gold-cup-roster

    The Bruce Bradley Berhalter Gold Cup Hits Volume 2, The B - Sides.

    With such nuggets as Tiny Dancer, Tim Ream and the all time Schlager hit: Ich sterb fuer dich, Michael Bradley. And of course Gonzo might as well be the inspiration For Dolor Dolor by Mana.

    I will say this, Nick Lima might be the best all around soccer player in America right now. Defends, attacks, passes, scores combined with a motor, intelligence and tenacity to play anywhere on the pitch. If he gets cut or doesn't see game time while the Greatest Hits above play before him, then there is problem in Beerholder's soccer matrix. He should be on a fastplane to europe by now.

    C'mon man @Bob Morocco this line:

    "Jackson Yueill: He's been the best American central midfield in MLS for the past eight weeks"

    This kid is legitimate and just like Stuart Holden, whose game his resembles: relies on technique in the tackle rather than West Side Story dance routine, good positioning, very quick intelligent runs and attacking passes out of the backfield and in the final 3rd, he wont displace "Run Chicken Run" bradley and now "RCR" 2.0 Will Trapp.

    Over a decade of this. Over a Decade! What a disaster.
     
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