The Future of Chris Wondolowski

Discussion in 'San Jose Earthquakes' started by lurking, Sep 29, 2016.

  1. staudio

    staudio Member+

    Mar 7, 2008
    Marin
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've always felt Wondo got snubbed by MLS after the World Cup......though you do see his face pop up in MLS ads....I think MLS was afraid if they used Wondo in their promotions, the casual observer would see it and think "isn't that the guy that missed that easy shot in the World Cup?"....Considering what he's done for the league, they have never embraced him like they have others who have accomplished much less in league play.....
     
  2. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Wondo was snubbed back in 2010 when Alexi Lalas called his first Golden Boot a fluke.
     
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  3. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    Wondo's pissed (and he'll get over it), especially about the "underachieved" notion, and I don't know if anyone's actually said that they underachieved. The only quote I have seen from Jesse so far is "We decided that we wanted to go in a different direction as we continue to build the identity of this club". That sounds more like a style / philosophy thing than an "underachieved" thing.
     
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  4. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    It was before the playoff game in NY against NYRB when Lalas said that Wondo's season was a "magic moment", a point in time when everything magically comes together. The implication here is that it is like Halley's comet - it is not going to happen again anytime soon. In that game Wondo scored the game winner and then went on to set all kinds of scoring records in MLS. There couldn't have possibly been a more solid "in-your-face" than the one that Wondo put on Lalas.
     
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  5. bsman

    bsman Member+

    May 30, 2001
    MadCity
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes

    The people who've been snubbed by Lalas constitutes a very long and distinguished list.
     
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  6. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I'm not sure. Wondo was Doyle's guy as I don't think Frank knew much about him at that point. Whichever way you look at it, Dom really screwed up by trading him for Cam Weaver.
     
  7. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No one said it. Jeff Carlisle (ESPN) is buddies with Kinnear, and asked a question that Wondo can't possibly answer (does he throw his old coach and teammates under the bus, or his GM and new coach?). Carlisle appears to just be stirring sh*t up (no actual quote from JF/CL, just "that seems to be the vibe I'm getting"), and another reporter interjects with "I didn't hear them say that"...
     
  8. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    I didn't quite pick up the subtleties of the conversation around that question, but Carlisle should be ashamed for stirring up crap. Obviously that is a very sore subject for Wondo because he's been in the trenches fighting with these guys - giving it everything, and the idea that they've "underachieved" and it cost the coach his job is incredibly insulting, and that's why he got choked up about it.

    This is the statement in the press from Jesse:

    “First and foremost, we would like to thank Dominic for his hard work, professionalism and contributions to this club over the years,” said Earthquakes general manager Jesse Fioranelli. “He worked hard this year and was a first-class person all the way. This decision was made after a lot of thought and evaluation. We decided that we wanted to go in a different direction as we continue to build the identity of this club.”

    Notice the words "direction" and "identity". Those are not words used to describe recent results or tactical things. They are words that are more about strategy, philosophy, and the long-term.
     
  9. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I'm sure Fioranelli and Fox were hired for the long termand that is where their vision is. As far as Wondo is concerned, I don't blame him for selling his house.
     
  10. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member+

    Dec 16, 1999
    Monterey, Ca
    He could have just said "this is what the fans want". Sports are an entertainment product and the team's play under Kinnear was terribly underwhelming. Time for SJ to shed the thug label and play real soccer. I suspect Godoy is going to enjoy playing much better under Leitch.
     
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  11. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    I take back what I said about Carlisle a bit, when I criticized him for making up a narrative about the Quakes seen by the technical leadership as "underachieving". This quote from Jesse (just saw this one) is a little more about "underachieving" though I think it is more about underachieving in terms of style of play, youth development, etc. than it is about "raw" results.

    “I think this team can achieve more,” Fioranelli said. “I think that we have still a story to tell as to the young players we have on the roster. I believe we have a story to tell as to how we want to present ourselves when we play away. I believe that we will want to mature a certainty as to our identity on the field.”
     
  12. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That quote still doesn't excuse Carlisle. Jesse's statement was that he thinks the team can do better. Duh, you wouldn't change the coach if you thought everything was perfect. The way Carlisle phrased it though makes it seem like Jesse thought the team was doing badly and that the team played Dom out of a job.
     
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  13. hc897

    hc897 Member+

    May 3, 2009
    San Jose, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Maybe I'm being cold-hearted, or maybe Wondolowski's just lying about the possibility of Kinnear getting fired, but if he genuinely didn't know it was coming, as he says, that is incredibly naive. I think it's more that he just doesn't want to believe it more than he didn't think it was possible, but yeah, I don't have a lot of confidence that he'll be the number one guy anymore. I think that's appropriate, but it's never fun to watch athletes feel uncertain. The life of an athlete is uncertain enough as it is. Having a coach who favors you be dismissed has got to bring up a lot of questions about your own future.

    He just didn't look prepared to answer any questions and probably shouldn't have taken any.
     
  14. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    #64 JazzyJ, Jun 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
    Eh, it's kind of a tough one. I really didn't like the question for the reasons you describe, but ultimately if a team is "under-achieving" it is on the coach. You can't just say that the players are not playing up to potential w/o asking why they aren't playing up to potential. It is up to the coach to make that happen (get the players to play up to their potential).

    Also, Jesse actually said the team is under-achieving in this quote. A team that "can achieve more" is by definition under-achieving, unless it is read as "achieving as expected but we want achievement beyond expectations".

    “I think this team can achieve more,” Fioranelli said

    Now if you take it in context you can see that he is talking about more than raw results, but nevertheless under-achieving is under-achieving. Ideally he would have put "under-achieving" in the kind of context that Jesse put it in to frame the question. But you don't always have that "time and space" in the context of a little post-training media session like that.
     
  15. SJTillIDie

    SJTillIDie Member+

    Aug 23, 2009
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The future of Chris Wondolowski is to play out the rest of his career in San Jose because he is our talisman. He is understandably upset about kinnear being sacked but he's a big boy and this is pro sports and I'm sure he will move on and keep killing it for us out on the field. Dude is one of the fiercest competitors in the league.
     
  16. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Over-achieving
    |
    |
    |
    |
    Under-achieving

    All Jesse's quote means is the team is somewhere between those two extremes, and not at the top.

    For example if the Boston Celtics replaced Jae Crowder with Gordon Hayward this offseason, then by definition they think Hayward cand do better. But that doesnt mean that they thought Crowder did a bad job, just that they think it can be done better. And if Danny Ainge went and said "I think we can achieve more with Gordon" it would be stupid for the media to turn around and ask Crowder "I get the vibe that Danny Ainge thought you underachieved last year, do you think you're an underachiever?"
     
  17. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    I don't think it is realistic or even the goal to have a club that is consistently over-achieving. You simply want a club that is good - and they are good as a matter of course, not because they are consistently exceeding expectations. And if they are consistently meeting expectations, that becomes the new norm anyway.

    In your over-achieving / under-achieving spectrum, if you really read between the lines of what Jesse is saying, it sounds more like under-achieving to me. He didn't say one thing that he thought they were "achieving".

    "I think that we have still a story to tell as to the young players we have on the roster." - translation: We are not doing a very good using / developing our young players.

    "I believe we have a story to tell as to how we want to present ourselves when we play away." -
    translation: We are not asserting ourselves when we play away.

    "I believe that we will want to mature a certainty as to our identity on the field.” - translation: We have an uncertain identity on the field.
     
  18. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #68 lurking, Jun 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    I just fundamentally disagree with that reading. Do the San Antonio Spurs overachieve every year? Well Ive seen stuides that show the if there is a coach effect in the NBA the coach who consistently overperforms is Pop. So either Popovich is consistently overperforming, or every other NBA coach is having his players underperform. If you dont allow for a coach to get average results to be considered the baseline for a solid performance, but judge everyone instead by the highest standard, then every other coach not named popovich is underperforming.

    Now, would you say the Warriors underachieved in 2013-2014? They won 51 games and certainly werent a bad team. Now, Kerr cam along and made them better, but I wouldnt say Jackson exactly held them back (Kerr has credited Jackson with the Warriors defense as I recall). Its just the job could have been done better. Jackson did an OK job. The Warriors wanted better then OK, so they made a coaching change.That shouldnt mean that the Warriors though Jackson couldnt coach or the team underperformed, just that they thought a different guy could get more out of them.

    So to me, saying someone is underachieving is a very pejorative thing to say. You dont say someone is underachiever if they go to Cal or UCLA because where if they really did everything they could be going to Stanford or Harvard. You save "underachiever" for high school dropouts who sit in their garage and smoke pot all day.

    By defining underachieve as literally not reaching your full potential? That renders the term totally meaningless.
     
  19. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    #69 JazzyJ, Jun 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    This is getting into semantics. I would say that since the Spurs are good every year, they are no longer over-achieving. It is simply a combination of players and coach that is consistently successful. They've set their standard high. Over-achieving for them last year would not have been great record / 2nd in the west. That is par for the course for them by now. Over-achieving would have probably been beating the Warriors.

    That's what I meant by you don't want to have to over-achieve every year. You want to just be good; you expect to be good and you achieve your goals consistently. You don't have to exceed them because they are already lofty because you are good.

    Now getting back to the point. I take Jesse's comments to be more about under-achieving than over-achieving. First of all, he doesn't call out any achievements. When Jackson was replaced with Kerr, the Warriors listed Jackson's achievments - making the playoffs, improving the defense, etc. What achievements of the Quakes under Dom does Jesse call out here? All I have seen in any of his comments about the change is that Dom worked very hard and he really valued their relationship, etc.

    And secondly, again, reading between the lines these sound like under-achievements not requests for over-achievements:

    "I think that we have still a story to tell as to the young players we have on the roster." - translation: We are not doing a very good job using / developing our young players.

    "I believe we have a story to tell as to how we want to present ourselves when we play away." -
    translation: We are not asserting ourselves when we play away.

    "I believe that we will want to mature a certainty as to our identity on the field.” - translation: We have an uncertain identity on the field.

    I also found this quote in Geoff Lepper's article on mlssoccer:

    When the improvements and efforts that "we" (technical staff) had done are not leading to the results they were hoping for, that sounds like missed expectations = under-achievement to me.
     
  20. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #70 lurking, Jun 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    First on the Jackson thing, what achievements would Jesse have quoted? And in explaining his decision to fire Dom, can you point to any failures of achievement (aka on field results) Dom's that he referenced? I think its noteable how little anyone in the organization has commented on the teams current record or specific wins and losses or table position.

    And all of the things you "translate", none of them are achievement related. Hes talking about identity, how we present ourselves, how we develop youth. This is an inherent criticism of the processes of the club. And while there is a criticism of Dom, or at least a disagreement inherent in those comments, it is not about the results (aka achievements) on the field.

    Carlisle's question translates to me as "Do you think the team choked so bad you got the coach you like fired". Not, do you think the team could have developed younger players better, or did you feel the team took the field in away games with the proper mindset or do you feel the team had a strong identity on the field... all those would have been fair. No, it was (translating again) "Did you screw up bad enough that your coach deserved to be fired?" Thats inherently unfair because of the loaded terminology he used, and because I dont think the inherent assumption of the question, that it was a results oriented decision, is true.

    Whats more, it pushes the false drama narrative "Why did the team fire a coach above the red line half-way through the season?" Because the firing probably didnt have a lot to do with where we were with the table and everything to do with how Jesse wants the team run going forward.
     
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  21. JazzyJ

    JazzyJ BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 25, 2003
    #71 JazzyJ, Jun 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    Well, that's exactly it. Dom has not really achieved anything of note in his run as Quakes coach, and even this year they are below the red line in PPG and near the bottom in goals scored. So how can we be talking in the context of "over-achievement" when nothing of note has really been achieved? It is clearly not in the same ballpark as your Jackson example (from one of the worst teams to playoff team) or your Celtics example (2nd round of playoffs or whatever it was).

    Yes, this quote indicates very clearly that he expected better on-field results (defined more broadly than simply wins and losses) with the additions they had made.

    ----

    I think that's where we have a disconnect. It seems like you are defining "achievement" narrowly as win/lose results. To me it is all about achievement - not just wins and losses but how you win and lose - are you developing your youth, can you assert yourselves on the road, do you have an identity, etc. Those are all things I could see on a "yearly goals", along with of course "make the playoffs". Either you achieve them or you miss them or you achieve and go beyond. While "make the playoffs" is still in question, he believes that they are falling short of the others, therefore we are in an "under-achievement" context here.

    Again, if players are under-performing, that is on the coach, unless you believe that the Quakes somehow have a disproportionate number of incurable malingerers on their team. The coach needs to motivate the players, put them in a position to succeed, etc. Unfortunately that question can also be taken the way you describe it, and Wondo probably took it that way because he is a very conscientious guy that takes the burden on himself. But again, when we think about a club as "under-performing" or "under-achieving", that is on the coach. That's why I didn't like the question at first, but after reading further comments that Jesse had made, I came to the conclusion that he really did put the current situation in terms of an under-achievement, and so Carlisle's question was not really all that unfair.

    I don't know that the red line thing is all that significant. We can split hairs - above the red line on points! Below the red line on PPG! There's just a bunch of teams all there together in the middle with similar records. So clearly it is not just about wins and losses, but about how they are winning and losing, and that is all part of the way that the team can be evaluated in terms of achieving their goals.
     
  22. hc897

    hc897 Member+

    May 3, 2009
    San Jose, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I do agree that the way the question was phrased was a bit tactless, but we can't kid ourselves and pretend that the Quakes have not underachieved. They have had a talented enough squad to get into the playoffs at least one of the three years that Kinnear coached them. He just badly mismanaged that squad, putting players in suboptimal positions, poorly managing substitutions and player time, not organizing the team in a way that could earn them more possession and goal scoring opportunities.

    It was a fair question, and Wondolowski did the right thing by not answering it if he didn't feel his answer would be well received by either the team or whomever.
     
  23. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    What if results don't improve? What if they get worse? When you're at .500, it's just as easy to go down than up. Easier, in fact.
     
  24. hc897

    hc897 Member+

    May 3, 2009
    San Jose, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I've said already that the team might very well get worse before it gets better and that's fine if there are signs of improvement elsewhere. A full teardown of this team would be welcomed by me. But there are markers for real improvement even when the game results aren't what you want. If the team starts earning more possession, starts generating more chances, changes its formations to play proactively, I will be satisfied in the short term.

    Of course the team could get worse, but it's also true that the team underachieved under Kinnear. But as always, I would take a team that is the worst in the league if they are at least entertaining. Under Kinnear, we got both bad results and boring soccer with absolutely no sign that anything would ever change. I'm very pleased that Fioranelli recognized this, and confirms that he was not going to be just more of the same. Being free from the Doyle/Yallop/Kinnear lineage is incredibly liberating for me as a fan. I'm as interested in this team now as I was when they first came back from the grave.
     
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  25. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Most fans won't agree with you. They will expect the 2017 squad to qualify for the playoffs, and if they do not, many cheering Kinnear's dismissal will be engaged in revisionist history.
     

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