The dreaded double dual

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RespectTheGame, Jul 21, 2019.

?

The double dual / three whistle system...

  1. Yes, you're right

  2. Nope, it's better than you think

  3. I have no idea, I've never done a double dual game

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  1. RespectTheGame

    May 6, 2013
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    So I'm moving to a state that apparently has the double dual as the sole method of officiating HS soccer.

    Personally I see life as a soccer referee like this:

    • R/AR/VAR: living the good life, Carribean water seen from my 60 foot yacht
    • R/AR Not beverly hills but blue skies and cold beer by the pool
    • Two man: Driving a used car with bald tires, it'll get you there but not much fun
    • Double dual: Trying to fall asleep with a hangover when your trailer park neighbor is playing metallica from 18" cervin vega speakers
    Am I wrong?

    If there is anyone who actually likes three whistle system in real life (i.e. not with a crew that you always work with and know/trust), can you explain how you make it work?

    Yes I'm hating, and had I known this before I built a home in this state I might have picked somewhere else to live, but it's too late the mortgage is already signed. I really would like to participate but I'm honestly just dreading it.
     
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  2. voiceoflg

    voiceoflg Member

    Dec 8, 2005
    No clue. I have never done a double dual. The two states I work in don't use them. Many older referees I have worked with have never even heard of it. I suggested it to the non-affiliated rec director once, who played at U6 and has been in the sport ever since said he never heard of it. I think the only reason I heard of it is from reading this forum. I would like to see it done once, though.
     
  3. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As far as I know, only Pennsylvania and Florida use it. Colorado used to, but they are getting rid of it this year.
     
    MrPerfectNot repped this.
  4. Rocinante

    Rocinante Member

    Oct 9, 2018
    I have never done a double dual, but if you're center referee could you have a pregame where you instruct your whistle holding "ARs" to only whistle on offside calls and X/Y/Z? Double duals might be games where your pre-game matters even more than normal.
     
    IASocFan and TimB4Last repped this.
  5. ptref

    ptref Member

    Aug 5, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    There are instructions for using this system in the back of the NFHS rules book. I think it could be fun, IF you had the right people. For example, I have 2 brothers that are also soccer referees. I feel like the 3 of us could work in that system pretty easily. But then again, we are also VERY familiar with each other, and have very similar styles when we officiate.
     
  6. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    o_O Must forget image of this occurring.
     
    IASocFan and ptref repped this.
  7. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    ...as I must cast out the image of ref'ing with my kids and all three of us having whistles. :eek:
     
    Law5 repped this.
  8. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    So you know the background, I have to explain that our state has some fairly thinly populated, remote areas. Come high school playoff time, local associations from the smaller areas will get assigned playoff games only outside of their normal service area. So, one "commissioner of officials" (i.e. assignor) decided, on his own, that his crew would use the double dual system on a playoff game they had been assigned. As you probably already know, coaches are pretty tightly wound up for playoff games and this guy trots out the double dual system! It did not go well. The next year, I added an explicit ban on use of the double dual system in any high school game in the state. And so peace guided the planets and love steered the stars.....
     
  9. fischietto

    fischietto Member

    Apr 13, 2018
    Again I ask ... what’s the point ?! If you have the manpower for 3, why not just be normal? I understand duals are done out of necessity (economic or otherwise) ... but three WHISTLES?
     
    Thegreatwar repped this.
  10. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    The logic I heard somewhere in the distant past was that having three proper referees on the field should result in better match control. Surely three referees with whistles can maintain order better than a referee with a whistle and two assistant with flags.

    And, when it comes to normal, other sports like football, basketball, and lacrosse have multiple referees each carrying their own whistles. Soccer is the sport where two of the officials carry flags and just inform the one with the whistle. So which is normal?

    It's actually pretty easy to understand this view for someone who isn't familiar with the sport or the officiating of it. High school soccer is a school event first and soccer game second.
     
  11. Rocinante

    Rocinante Member

    Oct 9, 2018
    I have a colleague who played basketball and now has children who play basketball and we frequently have discussions on how different the two sports are refereed. I talk about how I think it's weird an "on the floor" foul from a defender would invalidate a good shot if the attacker went on to make it and she finds it strange we don't punish all the fouls we see and let the game go (advantage and/or trivial). Double duals come from people who are more familiar with basketball and don't see why we wouldn't want to call every little foul the AR sees.
     
    Thegreatwar repped this.
  12. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    I'm normally very much against people trying to "fix" soccer officiating by adding officials or whistles. However there are games where, the center referee is just not going to listen to me or do what needs to be done, and those games I wish I had a whistle and a set of cards.

    I know it's an open door to INSIST and not ASSIST, but there's times when ARs are just being abused and ignored. I'm all for sitting back as much as possible and not getting in the way of the Centers game. But if I have a lame center who won't stand up for me, I'm doing it myself with my whistle and cards. I would like that option some days.
     
  13. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Me too, but thankfully no more than once a season or so. Either that or a shock collar on the center. (Mama said ...)
     
    IASocFan, voiceoflg and LampLighter repped this.
  14. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here is a video from when Colorado used the three whistle system.

     
    Bubba Atlanta repped this.
  15. simulation

    simulation New Member

    Mar 9, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I worked the Double Dual the 1st year North Carolina tried it. Then moved to Florida and had 2 years of regular Dual then went to Double Dual here. The only true benefit to the Double Dual is that everyone gets the same fee. No jealousy or animosity because one of us gets the center. The system will work as long as you want it to work. Despite the instructions don't try to do too much. The side officials use the whistle as a flag and no matter what the instructions say, stay on or close to your touch line. Major fail if you let players get between you and the touch line. Slow whistle is a good whistle. While the instructions tell you everyone is equal, that can't be the case. The Center should still retain final authority, keep the official clock, generally manage the game and set the thresholds for fouls, cards, discussion/dissent. We usually decide before a match if the center will give all cards or if the side officials will also give cards. Just need to get the report right. If the center is inexperienced, you can put an experienced official on the bench side to deal with bench issues. It can help with training a competent but new official by putting them in the center with 2 experienced side officials who can assist if something is really needed. I don't like the double dual but good officials with a common goal of a safe, fair match can make it work. Because you and the kids don't have another option. One issue is you will become dependent on the linesman whistling out of bounds and offside and when you go back to USSF you have to remember to check you lines.
     
  16. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We all still get the same fee in NC. I love getting HS ARs :)
     
    IASocFan repped this.
  17. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Some double duel systems rotate through the positions throughout the game . . .
     
  18. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    I've heard that before and it just seems to add MORE weirdness to this already bonkers system. This doesn't happen in football games, why would there be any reason to rotate?

    If anything the oldest most experience person should be in the center, so he can trail play while the two "side judges" are faster and younger because they have to get into more extreme positions.
     
    frankieboylampard repped this.
  19. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    That means as center in a double dual I would never have to leave the center circle at all except to get out of the way of the kickoff. Hmm ...
     
  20. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    There's gotta be something to do with those 70 year olds who won't retire. At least in this system I'll have a whistle since they can't seem to be able to see my flag from the circle.
     
    MrPerfectNot and IASocFan repped this.
  21. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I resemble that assertion.
     
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  22. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Yeah, dude ... if I can call a PK from 70 yards out, I can definitely see your limp flag just right over there.
     
    LampLighter repped this.
  23. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    I've never done a double and have in fact only done a couple of regular duals (which I despise), but I can see how the 3 whistle system could work well if everyone is on the same page. As an AR you have a whistle instead of a flag and can take up a better position when you don't need to be in position to make offside or boundary line decisions.
     
  24. voiceoflg

    voiceoflg Member

    Dec 8, 2005
    I often see this in duals. Neither one straying from the touchlines.
     
  25. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    When I reffed doing duals I was like a VISA card. "Everywhere I wanted to be"! :coffee:











    '
     
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