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http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...need-a-band-aid.2005606/page-42#post-30463285 Your wish is my command. Jurgen evaluating Landon only as a forward is evidence either that Jurgen is a total soccer idiot, or that he didn't evaluate Landon based on his soccer talent. I believe very strongly that Jurgen is NOT the stupidest manager in all of soccer, therefore, his comments show that he was looking for excuses to leave Landon off. For the record, I, personally, subscribe to the theory that Jurgen thinks Landon's talents have receded to the point that he can't be a "go-to" player anymore at the international level, and in camp he saw that the other players still treated him that way. At that point, Jurgen felt he had no choice but to cut Landon rather than have the rest of the team relying on a player Jurgen thinks is marginal. That's not me agreeing with Jurgen's decision, that's just me explaining it. And, folks, this is a discussion board. It's not a criminal court. Semantics about what is and isn't evidence should be presented accordingly.
First! (-ish). Couple things: One, our doing well in the WC--e.g., beating Ghana--neither confirms nor disconfirms that JK made a mistake by leaving LD off the roster. We will never really know the answer to this question, though the win does prove that we don't *need* LD to win on a world stage against a stout opponent (but we already knew this thanks to qualifying). Two, while I am still a strong believer that LD should have been on the roster, I don't think he'd be the solution for Jozy in a one-for-one switch. They're totally different kinds of players. That doesn't mean, though, that it wouldn't be great to have LD on the roster. At the very least, having him there would allow us to switch up our offense from the kind of target-forward dependent approach that centered on Jozy.
You much better articulated what I was trying to get at. I don't think LD can be a go to guy. But if he's on the field players will likely defer to him when they could do it themselves. I don't think that's a way to win. If JK feels that way, I agree with him. I also like progressing past the LD era now rather than later. I also happen to prescribe to the notion that team chemistry and on field actions are both soccer related and not personal.
I just want to clarify this in case anyone thinks, superdave, it SOUNDS like you're saying it's personal! Not exactly. "Personal" would be, I don't like him. To me, the best explanation given what I know now is that it's "personality" based, but not "personal." I'm a Carolina Panthers fan, and the Panthers cut Steve Smith because he's got a huge personality that dominates a locker room, and the Panthers believe Smith, while still good, doesn't have the talent level to match his locker room influence. They believe that Smith's continued presence on the team was hindering Cam Newton's development into team leadership. I see this decision as similar. Not the same, but similar. I think Jurgen made what was mostly a rational* decision that players in camp were deferring to Landon and that was bad for our chances in Brazil. *Rational decisions can still be wrong.
Exactly. Landon being on the roster would have allowed us a better lineup if the decision is to replace Jozy with...nobody, and just use Dempsey as a false 9.
I've come to the view that Donovan was cut because Jurgen had no plan to play him (or at least not much) and was afraid that might serve as a distraction on numerous levels (players wondering what's going on, media questions, etc.). On the one hand, I guess if you're not going to play him, you may as well cut him. But, on the other hand, I wonder if Jurgen would have changed his mind on Donovan's PT if he knew Jozy would go out in the 20th minute, Deuce would break his nose in the first half and Bedoya would aggravate a pre-existing hip pointer. Seems a little silly to not bring him along as an insurance policy, unless you simply think the risk of the distraction far outweighs the risk of needing him. All of this, of course, ignores the "why." I think the why boils down to Klinsmann just not getting Donovan on a fundamental level. He thinks he's soft. He's the type would would call him Landycakes in private, like maybe with his son. Caveat- All of the above is my opinion based on my own interpretation of the events (which I will refrain from calling evidence) of the last few weeks.
He may have that view, but calling him landycakes with his son? Is the view that he's not willing to put in the work personal though?
SuperDave, Your theory makes the most sense to me. I am ambivalent about the LD situation. I see both sides and I think your theory makes the most sense to me.
Yes because "put in the work" is Klinsmann's view of how players should approach training - when Donovan's fitness seems fine and his performance on the field is what counts in the end. (And the reports of Dempsey walking through scrimmages.)
I think the two sides in this discussion have a fundamental difference. I can get behind the fact that every two players may train differently but in terms of revamping a national team structure, having what JK perceives as poor training habits from a veteran isn't something you can have permeate your squad when you are putting so much focus on fitness. It comes back to the suffering quote from Bradley. I put team cohesion and on field product under professional issues, not personal. Even if you consider the cut personal for those reasons, do you also believe it has no effect on team dynamics?
I appreciate that people are trying to find reasonable, or logical reasons for why LD was left off of the team, but when you strip it down, the only thing that makes any sense is Klinsmann had a personal axe to grind with Landon. If indeed he does truly believe that he no longer could compete on the international level, then he didn't watch the very games he called Landon up to play in. Landon played in 10 matches in 2013 - he DOMINATED. He scored 8 goals and 8 assists in 818 minutes, or 1.76 g&a/90. No one else even comes close, except for Wondo. Are we going to say that Wondo, who's only a few months younger than LD is more suited to the international game? We saw LD dominate in the Gold Cup and score against Mexico in a qualifier. He had a bad half in a friendly vs. Mexico. IOW, when it counted, he showed up as he has his entire career. We might say that Klinnsman could point to a slow start in MLS, but of course that would be tenuous reasoning, and not one a competent manager would use in light of all of the other evid---errrr, things to take into account, to justify leaving him off the team. He may not be the stupidest manager or all time, and he's certainly not plain stupid, but leaving Donovan off the squad was pretty stupid. also, I made a mistake in this post. It was Robson Ponte, not Diego Placente who was out on red cards...
So much of this decision is focused on Klinsmann and Donovan. Just asking, how do you think Michael Bradley - given his razor-like focus on the game - felt about Donovan taking time off during World Cup Qualifiers? How do you think Howard and Dempsey felt about having to go to Honduras and Mexico while Donovan was hanging out in Asia?
They were probably not thrilled, but they probably also know that Donovan is going to work his ass off, and that he's going to help the team. As such, they probably want him at the WC.
First of all, I've got to give credit to @freisland for the theory. OK, why do I think that? I'd start by saying why I don't buy any of the other theories. I actually have a hard time disagreeing with Jurgen's "behind the other forwards" comment. But there's no rule that you can only take 4 forwards, and obviously there's no reason to not also compare Landon as a wide mid to Green or Davis. I don't think Jurgen's a total idiot. To me, Davis is a left footed, poor man's version of Zusi, who is OK but not that great anyway. Since you can't sub in specialists to take a free kick, I reject the idea that Jurgen really thinks Davis is better than Donovan. I don't think Jurgen is stupid enough to honestly believe Davis is better. (For what it's worth, Green obviously isn't as good either, but I only need to find one player, and since Davis and Donovan are the same age, they're a better comp for each other.) I will say that I'm softening my view on this because of what Jurgen said about subbing in Brooks instead of Gonzo, where he said he chose Brooks because he's left footed. So maybe he feels he has to have Davis because he has to have a left footed option. To me, the timing of the cuts was very peculiar. If it was personality issue, why even call him in? If it was form, why not let Landon play against Azerbaijan and Turkey? Really, the TIMING is the thing for me. What's the Sherlock Holmes saying? Once you've eliminated all of the impossible options, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. To me, Jurgen's reason being the dynamic between Landon and the rest of the team is the least unlikely option.
I'd guess they didn't appreciate it, but I also think they were perfectly comfortable with the thought of him in Brazil. He did jump through JK's hoops in the GC after all and helped them through qualifying. And they know he makes their team stronger - they said it both before and after LD was cut. Also, how do you think Dempsey and Howard feel their careers may be ended by Klinsmann? Are they worried they may get the treatment of Boca and Landon?
What makes you believe they saw him working "his ass off?" Again, just asking, but what if - say in the camp leading up to the Mexico friendly - Donovan was taking practices off and not working as hard as other teammates? I am just asking questions, but I do not believe this is just the "Klinsmann vs. Donovan" debate it is often framed to be.
I know you probably don't care about misrepresenting the facts in this case, but Donovan was in training with the Galaxy when the Honduras match happened. He wasn't in Asia. He should absolutely NOT have been called up for the Honduras match, but he was fit and available for all other qualifying matches. Again... I have no problem with JK excluding him, but at that point it's a coaches decision, not a player's decision. I would also flip your question around on you. How do you think players like Howard and Bradley feel about the coach arbitrarily changing the process of making the team without notifying the players? How do you think they feel about excluding a player who they believe is clearly better than the players being brought? All indications are that the players were caught off-guard by this move. While I don't agree with the reasoning, I think Superdave's explanation is the only one that passes the basic smell test, and even that one breaks down under scrutiny. Id other players are deferring to Donovan, make it clear that he's not a starter, and your problem is solved.
Landon was top third, even with a few health issues. He is a training and fitness fanatic. The notion that Landon has bad training and fitness habits is beyond absurd.
1. I think Howard, at least, mentioned that he thought LD had enjoyed a great training camp prior to the decision. 2. LD led the USA in goal scoring with 11 during 2013. If his one match absence in 2012, was a concern, certainly it did not appear to be last year. 3. Although each player's situation is different, Tim Chandler's alleged "fear of flying" and other assorted issues did not appear to be an issue in his choice, despite playing in only one qualifier. 4. Most team members are perfectly willing to put personal differences aside for the common good. It would be a surprise to me (and I really think your thought is a red herring) were Bradley, Howard or Dempsey unwilling to do this. Actually, we may not find out what the issue was until after the World Cup, if ever. For now, it appears that neither Donovan or Dempsey wish to comment. They are probably the ones who might really only know what happened.
I'm guessing Bradley respected Donovan's decision because Bradley has openly stated that Landon is a hero to him. I would think that Michael would understand that Landon was 30 years old and had been playing professional soccer and playing well over 150 games for his national team (including youth national teams) for 13-14 years. He'd probably understand that this was a guy who didn't get to enjoy high school, much less college, because he was too busy helping raise the profile of US Soccer all over the world. He'd probably understand that Donovan had already played in three World Cup cycles and helped the team qualify for and play in three World Cups. He'd probably get that that guy had gone through a divorce and some other personal things in his life and needed a break. He'd probably get that Donovan is a human (assuming robots can empathize).