The Cyle Larin Offseason 2017-18 Saga

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by Robert Borden, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    Basically MLS has been doing everything possible to screw domestic players for years. The vast majority if foreign players (Mexico, for example has well know collusion among owners) are basically free agents, able to play anywhere choose anywhere in their own country they want, and often rights to freely sign in other countries. So if MLS wants to low-ball them, it doesn't matter. However non-Mexican domestic players are limited to one team to negotiate with if they want to play anywhere on their own continent.

    Sure they can play in foreign leagues, but work rules among other issues get in the way. There is a reason why almost all players in this country grow up speaking English and/or Spanish yet more are plying their trade in Germany than Spain and England combined. When eliminate players that have an EU passport the difference becomes even more stark.
     
  2. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Two good points. MLS really should have to pick up options in the summer, before the six month window kicks in. Players have a right to know if they are or are not under contract during that window.
    And if Bestikas wanted Larin why the f did they not sign a precontract back in August? At the very least, that would have forced Orlando´s hand.
    As it stands, it is farcical to say he was not under contract because he didn´t move to them until after December?
    I am not sure this is the case the players union would want to attack options, because he did everything wrong.
     
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  3. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It might have if they lied and did not excercise the option when they said they did. But if they did, their hope would lie in the general incompetance at USSF
     
  4. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don´t think he´s blacklisted in MLS. He is a proven producer in MLS. If this mess ends up in Orlando´s favor, I think he´s done at Orlando, but other MLS clubs would sign him. Goals are goals.
    His problem is not that Euro clubs don´t pay attention to the business dealings of MLS (they do, and probably moreso than they do play in the league). His problem is that scoring goals in MLS is worth a lot less to them than it is to MLS clubs. He will be seen as a contract malcontent, a problem. That would be overtaken if he could score 10 to 15 in league over here, but barring that clubs don´t mind problems, but they want them to be highly productive on the field, at least.
     
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  5. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So the NASL and USL don't exist in your world? (Not to mention that Mexico is on this continent as well)
     
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  6. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What? MLS players are free agents, able to play anywhere they like once they are out of contract. And Larin's and/or his agent's behavior is the sort of thing you see in Europe all the time. The difference here is the option for an extension, which I don't think is common outside the US, but is standard in US sports.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think @scoachd1 overstates his case, but he’s basically right. MLS’ core wage-related concern is that they want to control/reduce the leverage and salaries of workaday American players.

    I’ll say this...once upon a time it hurt the product. Players used to leave for Scandinavia. A few players preferred to be stars in the 2nd division rather than rotation players in MLS. but those days at over. I don’t know how you’d make the argument today that MLS underpays Americans who aren’t stars.
     
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  8. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    If I were in the MLSPU I'd be pissed at Larin right now. I used to be a union organizer (IATSE-417). I'm pro-labor. But I'm also pro-contract.

    The MLSPU depends on contracts just as much as MLS does. The CBA is there for a reason, and to unilaterally abrogate one of the underpinnings is dangerous work.

    I haven't seen the histrionics here (yet) that we've seen in other cases. But the player signed a five year contract. The last two years - weren't his choice. He was an adult when he signed the contract. If he did not understand the risk, or his representation misled him, that's not the contract's fault.

    People are quick to holler and scream when a player has a great year and is suddenly "criminally underpaid", but I don't recall anyone calling for Bobby Convey to take a 50% pay cut at Sporting KC.

    As Superdave pointed out - it goes both ways. Larin signed the deal with MLS for the surety of the 3+2 rather than the risk of striking out on his own adventure. He made that choice. MLS (and his drafting club Orlando) have honored their end of the contract.

    If I'm MLSPU, I'm probably rooting for MLS on this - though publicly they can't say as much for obvious reasons. The time to bring this issue up is in the negotiations for the next CBA, not rip things asunder with the CAS.

    And, honestly, it doesn't matter whether the option pick up increase is a strict COA increase or a bonus laden doubling or tripling. It's a signed contract.

    There are well defined ways out of the contract - play it out, have someone buy the contract out to the satisfaction of the contract holding team, have the team decide not to pick up the option, or have both sides mutually decide to end it. None of these appear to be being met.

    I am pro-labor (or pro-labour for our Canadian friends, the full title of the IATSE includes the word twice - spelled once each way - it's the IATSE-MPMO affiliated with the AFL-CIO and the CLC).

    But a contract not signed under duress is a contract. And in the long run, anyone who believes in Collective Bargaining should be on the side of the contract being enforceable. If there are problems with the contract, that should be dealt with through the CBA process.
     
  9. superdave

    superdave BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    @AndyMead i have a quibble with the first sentence of the last paragraph.

    Ethically/morally, I’m not very comfortable with 3+2 for draftees. I think the players have a legitimate gripe there.

    The thing is, less money for draftees=more money for everyone else, so fat chance of the players giving a crap about this. It’s like the rookie salary caps in the NFL and NBA. Current union members couldn’t care less.
     
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  10. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Except that - unlike the NFL (and to a much lesser extent the NBA/NHL) - players getting drafted into MLS have other options - even within the United States and (soon!) Canada.

    Cyle Larin chose to play in Major League Soccer. Being Canadian, correct me if I'm wrong, that would allow him access to the 92+ professional teams in England as well as others without any need for work permits.

    Ten years ago, I might be more willing to agree with you - but the Combine and SuperDraft have mostly become an exercise in finding the next Dom Dwyer - not the next Carlos Bocanegra. The top domestic players are getting hoovered up by MLS homegrown contracts. And those have option years, too - but then those players also have non-MLS options not available to NFL players and until very recently not as viably available to NBA/NHL players.
     
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  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Most are heading to Germany now, with a one off here or there to Spain, Italy, England, Denmark, Norway, etc.

    There are a few on here that might make a decent argument...

    https://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/feat...eleased-200k-and-under-all-star-team-analysis

    Tyler Adams, Brooks Lennon, and Tim Parker all under $100K.

    I know Larin isn’t American but he’s scored 43G in the last 3 years. Is there anyone outside multi-million dollar DPs that have scored more over that period? For context, Altidore has scored 38G but does have about 5 more assists.
     
  12. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    He would need a work permit, he has the same status as every other non-EU national. There are no exceptions for Commonwealth players.
     
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  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I have no idea... I’d love to know. Does anybody have any data? Is there a list of options picked up in 2017. All anyone would need to do is compare 2016 and 2017 salaries for those players.

    Larin’s raises on his 2nd and 3rd year of his contract are in the 5% to 10% range (rough math in my head)... 10/167 and 15/177
     
  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I don’t see how the options are good for the player at all. There is no upside in them. If the team is going to pick up the option, that is floor of what you could negotiate with them. Having the leverage to leave would obviously give the player more upside. Kekuta Maneh’s historical salary is below. His situation is little odd because he was awaiting citizenship, but if you ignore that, I’m sure he wishes he didn’t have those options. I’m not sure but it looks like a 3+1+1 contract with moderate increases in all years except the first option year. Any idea what he is making at Pachuca? I’m sure he would have been worth more 2 years ago as 21 yo.

    YEAR BASE GUARANTEED
    2013 $55,000 $84,500
    2014 $70,000 $99,500
    2015 $84,275 $113,875
    2016 $127,500 $157,000
    2017 $138,875 $168,375

    http://www.spotrac.com/mls/columbus-crew/kekuta-manneh-11796/
     
  15. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    That is a nice bump for the 1st option year.

    Would need to look at other ga players as well to see if there is a pattern. Then we would likely know what Larins bump would be.
     
  16. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are sports contracts with option clauses used in Canada?

    If so he, his agent, or lawyer, should have known what he was signing up to.
     
  17. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    The options aren't in isolation. It's 3+2 or 2+2 - the 2 or 3 up front protect the players' interests more than the teams'. The options protect the teams' investment more than the players' interest..
     
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  18. Gamecock14

    Gamecock14 Member+

    May 27, 2010
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    #318 Gamecock14, Jan 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
    The only other player I know who actually had the 3+2 and had both his option years exercised rather than sign a new contract was Mcinerney and he went from 140k to 190k to 295k in years 3 to 4 to 5.

    Most GA deals are either 2 + 2 or 3 + 2 or you get some that are 2 + 1. Walker Zimmerman signed a new deal. Dom Dwyer signed a new deal before the contract option was picked up.

    Why did they sign new deals ... because in case of injury or form, their contracts were guaranteed for more than just single option years.

    EDIT: Andre Blake went from 138k to 187k in year 3 to year 4 before signing a new contract in year 5 when his option was picked up for the second time. Kelyn Rowe went from 180k to 220k in year 3 to 4 before signing a new contract in year 4 for the future.

    Just looking at some of the GA guys. Either they are out of the league by the time their initial contract ends or they sign a new deal before the second option year is exercised.
     
  19. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    yes
     
  20. PTFC in KCMO

    PTFC in KCMO Member+

    Aug 12, 2012
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Irrelevant. He signed the contract with an American team, in an American League, under American rules and laws.
     
  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    How so? I’d be interested in genaeral and specifically how this would apply to Larin.

    Those years are no different than any other sports contract. That would imply all sports contracts favor the player instead of team. I also think trying separate the two ignores what happens in other leagues. CP would be a good example.
     
  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It is nice bump and at least one data point to dispute the small pay increase someone was suggested. That is still well less than a player could make on the open market.
     
  23. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    A great sign if they want him to be ready to play asap

    I doubt they land Chicharito. Maybe they do get Demba Ba back or simply Larin gets his shot at the spotlight. Game with Bayern is like 3 weeks away.
     
  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wasn't disputing that.

    If he was African or European I could forgive his ignorance.

    If he is Canadian and they have a similar system to US sports, then he has no case.
     
  25. PTFC in KCMO

    PTFC in KCMO Member+

    Aug 12, 2012
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Fair enough.
     

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