The Containment Unit: The YA League Comparison Discussion

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Testudo, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Hate to see the Rodgers discussion. Can't we chalk that up to just coincidence. Though you're right about Besler and Zusi. They honestly should have taken the cash and run. Gotta imagine Besler could have been making near a million in the PL.
     
  2. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
  3. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What money was offered to them?

    Fulham was the club hardest after Besler. Did Zusi have any interest whatsoever? The market spoke. Wasn't anywhere near the demand BS thought there would be.
     
  4. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    #129 sidefootsitter, Oct 2, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
    Came to MLS at 32 after washing out at West Ham (25 appearances, 2 goals). He then moved onto Celtic (0 in 7) and Shimizu S-Pulse (0 in 8). So, if you take the guy as his career ends, you're getting skewed numbers ... or you make it look like the J-League is better than MLS.

    Once again - comparing a player in his prime (Auxerre career is from 18-26 years of age) to his final run with NYRB at 32/33.

    Once again - comparing a player in his prime with his career well into his 30's. Of course, toward the end of his career, Dichio scored 9 goals in two seasons (63 appearances) with PNE in the Championship, then moving to MLS at 33 and then rediscovering his touch with 14 in 59 for Toronto. Comparative ratios are .14 for PNE and .24 for TFC ... so you made my point for me!

    Wow .. the guy's career really fell off at 36!!!!

    Who would have thunk????
     
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  5. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    #130 sidefootsitter, Oct 2, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2014
    Good work.

    But these tournaments are not head-to-head until the playoffs (and, yes, I am aware of the fact that Liga MX teams often send weakened squads to South America for the midweek matches), which is why I took the finalists since 2000.

    Of course, I didn't go into the semis or quarters and that may change the overall picture as well. If you have those, I'd welcome the info.

    Luke Rodgers is arguably the worst "legitimate" UK player to have graced the MLS stadiums (compared to guys like Andy Dorman, Adam Moffat, Luke McDonald, Dom Dwyer, who really didn't become pros in their native lands for various reasons) but there have been plenty of the Championship and League One types who have ... and they did well.

    As to guys like Troy Deeney and Jordan Rhodes, there have been £10+M offers for their services with obviously a corresponding wage hike. If they extended in the Championship, it means that their wages are on par with what they would have made in the EPL.

    Of course, £50K/w is over $4m/y and Rhodes, from the various boards, is on about $2.5m/y.


    Ya, so? Everyone has a story to tell. This isn't about Leicester.

    We know he went to Vejle after that - a side that was relegated from Denmark's top flight with him in the net. And I don't know why they were relegated either. I assume that's because they allowed a ton more goals than they scored.

    PS. And Anangono and Galvan flopped. So, OK, there are a couple of South Americans here.
     
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  6. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not such a crazy thought
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    wait wait wait...I thought we'd already established that age is irrelevant!! Now it's relevant?

    Huh, @sidefootsitter using inconsistent standards in an argument. Whoda thunkit! It's inconceivable!
     
  8. Mr. P Mosh

    Mr. P Mosh Member+

    Aug 10, 2009
    Monterrey, NL, Mex
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Show Spoiler
    Libertadores 1998
    América 1 - 1 River Plate [8s]
    River Plate 1 - 0 América [8°s] - River

    Libertadores 2000
    Boca Juniors 4 - 1 América [SF]
    América 3 - 1 Boca Juniors [SF] - Boca

    Libertadores 2001
    River Plate 0 - 0 Cruz Azul [4°s]
    Cruz Azul 3 - 0 River Plate [4°s] - Cruz Azul
    Cruz Azul 2 - 0 Rosario Central [SF]
    Rosario Central 3 - 3 Cruz Azul [SF] - Cruz Azul
    Cruz Azul 0 - 1 Boca Juniors [F]
    Boca Juniors 0 - 1 Cruz Azul [F] (3 - 1 pen) - Boca

    Libertadores 2004
    Santos Laguna 0 - 1 River Plate [8°s]
    River Plate 1 - 2 Santos Laguna [8°s] (5 - 3 pen) - River

    Libertadores 2005
    Guadalajara 4 - 0 Boca Juniors [4°s]
    Boca Juniors 0 - 0 Guadalajara [4°s] - GDL

    Libertadores 2006
    Guadalajara 0 - 0 Velez [4°s]
    Velez 1 - 2 Guadalajara [4°s] - GDL

    Libertadores 2008
    Lanús 0 - 1 Atlas [8°s]
    Atlas 2 - 2 Lanús [8°s] - Atlas
    Boca Juniors 2 - 2 Atlas [4°s]
    Atlas 0 - 3 Boca Juniors [4°s] - Boca

    Libertadores 2010
    Guadalajara 3 - 0 Velez [8°s]
    Velez 2 - 0 Guadalajra [8°s] - GDL
    San Luis 0 - 1 Estudiantes [8°s]
    Estudiantes 3 - 1 San Luis [8°s] - Estudiantes

    Libertadores 2014
    Santos Laguna 1 – 2 Lanús [8°s]
    Lanús 2 – 0 Santos Laguna [8°s] - Lanus

    Mex - 6
    Arg - 7

    Show Spoiler

    Libertadores 2000
    Atlas 0 - 2 Palmeiras [4°s]
    Palmeiras 3 - 2 Atlas [4°s] - Palmeiras

    Libertadores 2002
    São Caetano 2 - 0 América [SF]
    América 1 - 1 São Caetano [SF] - São Caetano

    Libertadores 2003
    Cruz Azul 2 - 2 Santos [4°s]
    Santos 1 - 0 Cruz Azul [4°s] - Santos

    Libertadores 2004
    São Caetano 2 - 1 América [8°s]
    América 1 - 1 São Caetano [8°s] - São Caetano

    Libertadores 2005
    São Paulo 4 - 0 Tigres [4°s]
    Tigres 2 - 1 São Paulo [4°s] - São Paulo
    At. Paranaense 3 - 0 Guadalajara [SF]
    Guadalajara 2 - 2 At. Paranaense [SF] - At. Paranaense

    Libertadores 2006
    Guadalajara 0 - 1 São Paulo [SF]
    São Paulo 3 - 0 Guadalajara [SF] - São Paulo

    Libertadores 2007
    América 0 - 0 Santos [4°s]
    Santos 2 - 1 América [4°s] - Santos

    Libertadores 2008
    América 2 - 4 Flamengo[8°s]
    Flamengo 0 - 3 América[8°s] - América
    América 2 - 0 Santos[4°s]
    Santos 1 - 0 América[4°s] - América

    Libertadores 2010
    Guadalajara 1 - 2 Internacional [F]
    Internacional 3 - 2 Guadalajara [F] - Inter

    Libertadores 2011
    Santos 1 - 0 América[8°s]
    América 0 - 0 Santos[8°s] - Santos

    Libertadores 2013
    Tijuana 0 – 0 Palmeiras [8°s]
    Palmeiras 1 – 2 Tijuana [8°s] - Tijuana
    Tijuana 2 – 2 Atl. Mineiro [4°s]
    Atl. Mineiro 1 – 1 Tijuana [4°s] - Atl. Mineiro

    Mex - 3
    Bra - 11

    And as a bonus, Liga MX vs Conmebol in Libertadores (all matches):
    ________|___ PLD__|___ W___|___D____|___L ___ |___GF__|__ GA___|___GD
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    If we measure the J-League by the performance of its clubs in international competitions, it won't come out well. No AFC Champions League finalists since 2008, not even any quarterfinalists this year. And getting knocked out by Western Sydney Wanderers is a lot worse than losing to LigaMX.

    For as rich a country as they are, they really don't import much high-quality talent. They have only three unrestricted foreign player slots, and judging by some of the players who fill them (including Dejan Jakovic), they don't seem inclined to spend a lot of money on them.

    In the long run, spending on player development is a better investment than importing, but there isn't much evidence that Japan is there yet.
     
  10. cpwilson80

    cpwilson80 Member+

    Mar 20, 2001
    Boston
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought this article would add some focus to the discussion here, as it is a good starting point:

    http://statsbomb.com/2014/10/goal-scoring-and-assist-distributions-across-leagues/

    To summarize:
    - Assessing scoring/attacking contributions across leagues is difficult
    - Scoring totals and averages can be misleading
    - Look at the relative performance above/below the average league player to measure attacking output

    As for next steps to build on this analysis:
    - Weight the data on a per90 basis (I think a non-penalty goal per90 would be even better)
    - Assess relative performance among players who switched leagues. For example, Luis Suarez will be a good comparison.
    - Start to analyze performance across different tiers of leagues. My guess is that it'll be easy to measure movement among the Big 4, plus France / Holland / Portugal. Including MLS will be a challenge, due to the sample size.

    Ultimately, I think this article raises as many questions as it provides answers, but it is surfacing the right questions.
     
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  11. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hopefully the author follows through on his curiosity. Would draw further new readers from here, for sure.
     
  12. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #137 Testudo, Oct 15, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
    “There’s nothing I can do about it,” Klinsmann said when asked if he was concerned about Dempsey and Bradley being able to maintain their levels playing in MLS. “I made it clear with Clint’s move back and (Bradley’s) move back that it’s going to be very difficult for them to keep that same level that they experienced at the places where they were. It’s just reality. It’s just being honest.

    “I want (Altidore) to get through the difficult time at Sunderland and maybe make a big step one day to a Champions League team in Europe because that’s where the top players in the world play,” Klinsmann added. “Now, making the step back, I totally get it. It’s a huge financial offer. It’s also connected to many other elements and this league is getting better and stronger every year in which we are all very proud about, and I want everyone to grow in this environment, but the reality also is that for both players, making that step means that you are not competitive environment that you were in before.

    “It’s not easy for Michael and it’s not going to be easy in the future.... I think he’s been faced with a very, very difficult year," Klinsmann said of Bradley. “Making that decision to go from Roma, a Champions League team, to Toronto, that now seems like they’re not even qualifying for the playoffs, it’s a huge disappointment. That comes along with that you adjust yourself to whatever environment you’re in.

    “He had to adjust to the environment he’s in with Toronto instead maybe an environment that plays Champions League football,” Klinsmann said. “He’s going through that experience now and still coming in. For the first time since the World Cup, he has to prove that he hasn’t lost a bit. Obviously, he'll keep working and pushing, but it’s down to him and his environment to see what he’s capable to play in.”

    http://www.sportingnews.com/soccer/...bradley-clint-dempsey-jozy-altidore-us-soccer

    [​IMG]
    Once highly-touted English midfielder Giles Barnes has opted to represent Jamaica, after reviving his career with MLS' Houston Dynamo.... After bursting onto the scene with Derby County as a 17-year-old, the attacking midfielder’s performances while helping lead the Championship side to promotion during the 2006-07 campaign were impressive enough to earn him the label of “the next Theo Walcott” and have a host of Premier League clubs chasing his signature.

    Tipped as a future England regular, a string of serious injuries however put paid to any of those aspirations, with Barnes limited to just 33 appearances with Derby over the next five seasons, before being controversially released in December 2009, an earlier loan spell at Fulham failing to prove the kick-start for his career.

    Following unspectacular stints at West Brom and Doncaster, respectively, Barnes found his wonderkid status noticeably tarnished and, without a club going into the summer of 2012, facing an uncertain future.

    That was until an opportunity to move to MLS with the Houston Dynamo presented itself, where, after a relatively slow start, Barnes’ fortunes have taken a noticeable upturn.

    Converted to a more forward role in the Dynamo attack, the 25-year-old was one of the breakout stars of the 2013 season, scoring nine goals in 32 games while banishing his past injury problems.

    Continuing 2014 from where he left off for the Texas-based club, it now appears that Barnes will get the chance to play international football after all....

    http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2014/06/19/fs-ex-england-wonderkid-giles-barnes-opts-for-jamaica/
     
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  13. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Barnes adds another layer of complexity to comparisons across leagues. Should we view his success in MLS as a consequence of playing in a weaker league, or as the fulfillment of the talent he was perceived to have had all along?
     
  14. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I see this as more an indication that fitting well with a club is as important as individual ability. He had a bad start in Houston as a midfielder, but formed a great partnership with Will Bruin when he moved to forward.
     
  15. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One extra layer of complexity for leagues outside the Big 4 is that many of them are selling leagues and the clubs competing in continental competitions have often lost the key players that got them into those competitions.

    My sense is that the J-League and K-League are heavily scouted by European clubs and sell top talent, while some of the leagues they compete against in Asia (China, Australia, and many of the West Asian leagues) are buying leagues that hold on to their top players. And unlike, say, the Netherlands, they also aren't dominated by a few clubs whose academies continually pump out top talent.
     
  16. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    MLS is so hard to compare against. Probably has the widest talent span in the history of soccer. Players that are demonstrably mid-level EPL range (Keane, Defoe, Donovan, Henry, Bradley, Cahill, Jones, Dempsey and a few others) in the same league as players that are far, far away from that level. Things will actually get worse with the new TV money bringing in better foreign players while three planned expansion teams in the next team will stretch the quality American players even more thinly. I expect that the premium on quality American players will get higher and higher and we'll see less and less established YAs abroad.
     
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  17. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Of course, it could be either/or (he played wing more with Derby and withdrawn striker later on, whereas he often plays upfront for Dynamo).

    Nonetheless, he scored 1 goals in 55 appearances in his last two years in England (with West Brom and Doncaster) and 20 goals in his last two MLS seasons (66 matches) with Dynamo.
     
  18. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    How's that Costa Rican who played with the Crew player doing in Serie A? Curious to his thoughts on the vast improvements he's had to made and adjustments to the technical/physical differences in the leagues.
     
  19. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=giancarlo+gonzalez+palermo
     
  20. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
  21. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    :thumbsup:
     
  22. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    #147 Ceres, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014

    ... a bit late with a response ... It's correct that Brøndby were in financial problems, but then came investors to the rescue and threw at least $30 million at the club.... so by the time Goodson was granted a free transfer by Brøndby, they had the money to pick up Dutch international Khalid Boulahrouz who became his replacement ... they also picked up Michael Almebäck from Club Brugge ... not to forget Thomas Kahlenberg and Ferhan Hasani
    from VfL Wolfsburg + Alexander Szymanowski from Spanish side Recreativo de Huelva in that transfer window, so they had plenty of money to sign fairly expensive players by the time they agreed to release Goodson, who had been a great disappointment ...

    Now they btw have even more money and have replaced Khalid Boulahrouz with Daniel Agger from Liverpool and have also picked up Swedish international Johan Elmander ...


    Jimmy Nielsen had trouble finding himself a Danish Superliga club when he returned to Denmark from Leicester, but he was picked up in the winter break by Vejle BK that were heading for promotion to the Superliga and became their team captain ... they did win promotion and when they suffered relegation the following season he stayed on and was doing well for them, but in the winter break it seemed clear that they were not likely to win promotion this time and not being able to find a Superliga club, he was on the brink of retirement and calling it quits when he suddenly got the offer from MLS ... this made him change his mind and to give his career one more try ... He played every single minute of every single match for Vejle in the Superliga and 1. Division, so he was not injured while playing for them.
    .
     
  23. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Well how much of a disappointment was Goodson? He came into the squad and quickly became a regular and was even captain. He did seem to lose form but played up until his departure. He was pretty much coming from Norway. What were they expecting from a 28 year old giant who had only played in MLS and 1 season in the top division of Norway?
     
  24. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    #149 Ceres, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
    The problem with Goodson was that Brøndby are a highly attacking minded team, so they do not defend low, but need their centre backs to be very good at passing the ball upfield and to be pretty fast, so they do not get punished when their opponents counter attack ... and Goodson too often got caught upfield, because he was not fast enough and not good enough at passing the ball ... he is a good header and there was nothing wrong with his fighting spirit and positioning at corner kicks, where he could easilly handle the duels ... so he would probably have been a very good Captain for a smaller team that is defending low, but a Danish club like that would probably not have been interested in paying his fairly high wages ....

    Btw... the new and very rich Brøndby chairman Jan Bech Andersen who personally managed to get Agger from Liverpool to Brøndby, is a close personal friend of John Terry and he is now trying to persuade Terry to chose Brøndby as his next club, when he is ready to leave Chelsea that is ... Terry told Danish TV2 that he find the offer interesting, but that it is a bit too soon for a move.
    .
     
  25. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Okay so why exactly did they pick up Goodson when I'm sure his pros and cons and limits as a player were known up until the time he made the transfer. I guess being a US international (on the squad for Brazil) was in his favor.

    That sounds so random though. Can't imagine Terry making such a move. He'd be taking a huge paycut.
     

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