The Containment Unit: The YA League Comparison Discussion

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Testudo, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Jimmie Nielsen couldn't make it with Leicester in the Championship in his prime. He then moved to a very low tier (aka financially poor) Vejle and stayed there until the club was relegated (it remains in the Danish 2nd Division to this day) in 2010. He ended up winning the MLS GK of the Year in 2012.

    Let me bring up another GK - Donovan Ricketts, who was deemed barely adequate with Bradford City, then (and now) in League One ... and yet magically won the MLS GK of the Year honor as well (in 2010).

    Like I said, everywhere you look, MLS is a League One equivalent ... maybe.
     
  2. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Reviewing your list with slight modifications
    • International club performance - In my view, this is the good one, provided that the competition is fair, meaningful, and equally meaningful to both sides. Unfortunately, all we can learn directly about MLS is that it's a distant #2 in its region. And then we can see that Mexico is strong relative to top Asian and African teams but not close to the top European or South American teams.
    As for the others
    • Salaries and incoming transfer fees - If this were a relianble indicator of quality, then the Red Bulls and Toronto FC would be perennial MLS powers.
    • Outgoing transfer fees - This is an interesting one. Unfortunately, if you sell your top talent at age 20, you undercut some of your own league's strength.
    • National teams assembled from leagues - This one doesn't really make sense. National teams aren't assembled from leagues.
    • Players who compete in multiple leagues - Could be very interesting if done well, but not if done unsystematically, and not at all easy to do.
     
  3. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So the consensus is that MLS is not 2nd divisions level but third division level? Based on the salaries I would concede that this is a fair point.

    But this is ignoring the fact that soccer is a team sport. To my eyes most of MLS's starting 11's look like they play 2nd division quality ball as a team.
     
  4. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    The Mexican top league (aka Liga MX) has other sample areas beside the CONCACAF Champions League - the World Club Championship and the South American competitions Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamericana. As such, Liga MX teams have not performed all that well in either of the three. They have never even made the finals in the WCC and, if you throw out the inaugural event in Brazil, have only one third place finish in nine tournaments, which is behind the Asians who have three (Urawa, Gamba, Pohang) and Africans who have two (Al Ahly, Al Sadd).

    In the South American tournaments, they're rated somewhere behind Brazil, Argentina, Colombia and Ecuador, close to Uruguay, Chile and Paraguay and ahead of Bolivia and Venezuela. In all of their times down there, Liga MX have only one finals appearance (2010, when Chivas went down 5:3 to Internacional of Brazil), which is less than Paraguay (Olimpia being the 2002 winners), Colombia (2004 Once Caldas), Ecuador (2008 Liga de Quito) and obviously Brazil (six winners since 2,000) and Argentina (also 6 in the same time frame).
    Interesting you brought this up. Both teams are a pretty good exhibit why MLS would struggle in the Championship - there are some legitimate top tier players on both clubs (well, not on Toronto with Defoe's injury or refusal to play) but there are also players that are probably below League One quality. Yes, the NYRB defense, both in talent and performance, is just pathetic. And thus, you have to mix the mediocre with the incompetent and the overall concoction wouldn't taste that good.

     
  5. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    For some reasons, the quote function is added at the end, obscuring the last few paragraphs.
     
  6. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Keep cherry-picking like that (both the players who did worst abroad, and the worst assessments of players who went abroad), and you start to lose credibility. Again, most of the players who played for Toronto and Montreal, and a bunch who played for New York, say the exact opposite. The aggregate doesn't look like League One.

    Also, what about the US national team? A bunch of players who have consistently been Championship starters or Premier League second-stringers (Spector, Lichaj, Whitbread, Simek among others) got called into the USMNT camps repeatedly when the team was looking to replace aging or often-injured defenders in the last two or three years, and it was MLS players who claimed the starting spots over them.
     
  7. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    That's OK. Some people believe that the Earth is flat while the others that they just saw Elvis at a local supermarket.

    I picked the players that were there. You know where the MLS stats are. Go ahead and find the examples that support your point of view ... whatever it happens to be.

    (of course, Luke Rogers ought to be the debate ender all by himself - a career League Two player scored at a higher rate for the NYRB (9 in 23) - than he did in the preceding season for Notts County (13 in 46) in League Two! After leaving MLS, he signed with Lillestrom in Tippeligaen (UEFA 27th) where he scored once in 7 matches. He then scored 4 goals in 19 matches for Portmouth and Shrewsbury Town in 2012. Then zero goals in 2013, split between Shrewsbury (League Two) and Hammarby (Superettan/Sweden II)

    They could have said MLS was better than Bayern and Barcelona combined.

    But stats show precisely the opposite.

    I am not sure if you understand what you are arguing here. Klinsmann took a 4th tier German guy over the MLS All-time leading scorer and probably an eventual assist leader.

    Individuals can make mistakes in judgement or have other motives.

    On the other hand, immediately during and post-WC, folks here argued that Matt Besler was the next Bobby Moore and, if not Bobby Moore, then at least better than Dejan Lovren. Well, Lovren went for Liverpool for $30M and is making $5M/Y while Matt Besler re-signed with MLS for $630/Y.

    Well, $630K is a good Championship level wage but Besler and Zusi are among MLS best players. In the Championship, their wages would pale in comparison to Jordan Rhodes' $2.5M/Y contract. Klinsmann had little choice in his selections. The club managers, on the other hand, do and they don't happen to spend money on MLS players.
     
    jond and Testudo repped this.
  8. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For some reason, Rodgers did better when his strike partner was Thierry Henry. It's strange that he didn't do as well when paired with Francesco Totti at Lillestrom or when paired with Zlatan Ibrahimovic at Shrewsbury Town.
     
  9. HouseHead78

    HouseHead78 Member+

    Oct 17, 2006
    Austin, TX
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Everyone who has played next to Henry in MLS has put up career numbers. That's not a coincidence.
     
  10. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Yes, CONCACAF has never made the finals of the WCC, which would require beating a UEFA or CONMEBOL champion. As for comparisons to champions of other regions, CONCACAF champions come out well.

    CONCACAF Champion vs Africa Champion

    CONCACAF won 4
    Africa won 3
    Ties 0

    CONCACAF Champion vs Asia Champion

    CONCACAF won 3
    Asia won 1 (as host nation)
    Ties 1

    Africa Champion vs Asia Champion

    Asia won 4
    Africa won 0
    Ties 1 (Asian team from host nation)

    Overall Head-to-Head
    (ignoring host sites)

    CONCACAF 7-3-1
    Asia 4-3-1
    Africa 3-8-0

    An African champion posted an upset win in the 2010 semis, but the overall track record isn't very good.

    Note that my criteria for international competitions were "fair, meaningful, and equally meaningful to both sides."

    Sudamericana is meaningless, and Libertadores clearly goes out of its way to stack the deck against Mexican clubs. Even so, I'm pretty sure that any reasonable assessment of overall Libertadores performance would show LigaMX coming out well against everyone except Brazil and Argentina.
     
  11. Mr. P Mosh

    Mr. P Mosh Member+

    Aug 10, 2009
    Monterrey, NL, Mex
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    #111 Mr. P Mosh, Oct 1, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014
    Liga Mx has 2 Libertadores finals (Cruz Azul vs the original Bianchi's Boca).

    We didn't play Sudamericana that much, but we won it once and had another final IIRC (América - Arsenal?).

    I did an historical head to head comparison between Liga Mx vs Argentine & Brazilean clubs in Libertadores like 2 years ago and the records against Argentina was in favor of Liga MX (we had 1 or 2 more wins, it may evened out now).

    The real problem is that lately Liga MX teams seem to lose against Chilean, Uruguayan and Colombian teams more often.

    Edit:
    Found them:

    Against Primera División Argentina:

    Tabla-vs-argentinos.png

    Against Serie A:

    Tabla-vs-brasileños.png

    The results are from the first Libertadores with a Mexican team, until the first match of the 2013's edition group stage.

    The tables just until 2012.
     
    Hararea repped this.
  12. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Start?"
     
    Elninho repped this.
  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  14. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  15. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  16. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  17. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Danny Dichio's stats are almost identical with West Brom and TFC. West Brom was mostly a then-Division One side, with one season in the Prem.
    Senior career*
    Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
    1993–1997 Queens Park Rangers 75 (20)
    1993 → Welling United (loan) 3 (8)
    1994 → Barnet (loan) 9 (2)
    1997–1998 Sampdoria 2 (2)
    1997 → Lecce (loan) 10 (2)
    1998–2001 Sunderland 76 (17)
    2001 → West Bromwich Albion (loan) 3 (4)
    2001–2004 West Bromwich Albion 63 (16)
    2003 → Derby County (loan) 6 (1)
    2004 → Millwall (loan) 5 (5)
    2004–2005 Millwall 41 (12)
    2005–2007 Preston North End 63 (9)
    2007–2009 Toronto FC 59 (14)
     
  18. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Great stuff, thanks! The fact that Mexico sends its top teams to CCL rather than Libertadores factors into these results, as well.
     
    Mr. P Mosh repped this.
  19. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  20. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  21. Mr. P Mosh

    Mr. P Mosh Member+

    Aug 10, 2009
    Monterrey, NL, Mex
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    I updated it BTW:

    Vs Primera División Argentina:
    [​IMG]

    Vs Serie A:

    [​IMG]
     
  22. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    You have absolutely no clue as to why Casino Jimmy didn't "make it' with Leicester.
     
    The Irish Rover repped this.
  23. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    Wouldn't argue with you that MLS is League 1 equivalent. The core squads (starting 11 plus tactical substitutes) of the top 4-6 in any one season could survive and even do well in the championship, but the rest are League 1 playoff material. It's improved a lot over the last 5 years, but there's still a way to go.

    Where Nielsen is concerned, when he was at Leicester his gambling problem was at its most acute. If you are losing the kinds of money that he was losing and can't pay, the guys running it don't send the lawyers around; they send skinheads with lots of muscles and no necks who strike up conversations with your wife as she's picking up the kids after school. Conversations like "that's a very pretty daughter you have there. Such a pity if she were to fall down the stairs." Tends to affect your performance.
     
  24. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    Still not why Nielsen failed at Leicester. His big time gambling issues were before he signed for us.
     
  25. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    On My Squatty Potty
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's pretty spot on, but I'd say Chivas and Colorado, probably SJ too, aren't League One playoff material. Seattle is a team, based solely on their first XI and pretending those 11 could go 90 for a full Championship season, could be in the conversation for the Championship playoffs, but if Seattle had the depth and the payroll to buy the depth we see in the Championship, we'd be talking about a different league and not one with a sub-4M salary cap.
     

Share This Page