The Containment Unit: The YA League Comparison Discussion

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Testudo, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, my point about team chemistry seems to have gotten lost in the basketball talk. The best performers in any league benefit a lot from team chemistry.The foreign players who have succeeded in MLS have done so on teams where they form good partnerships with teammates and well into the system. On the other hand, if you were to look only at Toronto's signings from foreign leagues (there's a lot of them!) and how they've done in MLS, you'd conclude that MLS is the strongest league in the world.
     
  2. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rafa Marquez washed out of MLS then a few years later ended up in Italy. MLS>Serie A
     
    Xenimus, dwsmith1972 and Martin Fischer repped this.
  3. kruck

    kruck Member+

    Jan 12, 2008
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Oh right! like Steve Cherundolo who was a starter for Hannover 96 for almost 15 years... and had a total of like 10 goals in his entire career.

    When are you going to point out all the players who've had good careers in MLS and then made the jump to Europe who succeeded?

    The Bocanegra's, Beasley's, Holden's,Dempsey's, McBride's,Friedels's, Hahnemann's, Lewis',Guzan's, Howard's, Altidore's, Ream's, Bradley's, Kljestan's, Edu's, Movsisyan's,Montero's..

    These are just some off the top of my head... ^ while not all were successful their entire careers, they enjoyed some sustained success in different top flights in Europe...

    What about all the credentialed foreign players who have washed out?

    I don't understand the lopsidedness of your argument.
     
    Xenimus repped this.
  4. ucraymond

    ucraymond Member

    Mar 18, 2006
    Wow, that's amazing. I thought of him as much older because he played 4 years in MLS after college ball and had that receding hairline. Though 22 is old enough to be a decent pro.

    In general age will be a factor one way or the other for most before-and-after comparisons like this. I guess we should try to stay away from extreme cases like "Blows" Nkufo, who was ready to retire when he arrived.
     
  5. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    #80 sidefootsitter, Sep 26, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
    Trolling is often an accusation by those who don't address the topic but instead chose to spew filth (and some posters are allowed to get away with a lot of filth - pointing fingers)

    But I'll respond to this nonsense anyway. Fullback's role in 4-2-3-1 - a system deployed by Stoke and frequently by the US - is to provide width on the attack and Geoff is actually very good at it. With Kinnear's 4-4-2, he was usually deployed as either a typical central defender or a holding midfielder, whose job was to provide a screen for the central defender.

    The above shouldn't surprise anyone who understands the difference between, let's say, teammates like Gerard Pique and Sergio Busquets and Dani Alves or Jerome Boateng and Philip Lahm or John Terry and John Obi Mikel and Bronislav Ivanovic.

    The problem with Yura is the same as with Lee Nguyen (who washed out of Denmark and the Netherlands before establishing himself as an MLS star.) - is that their careers depended somewhat on their maturity as pros.

    In any case, Yura scored his first goal for Randers in his 3rd match (5th overall) after being benched for two matches. He scored 1 goal in his first 8 matches, then 6 in his next 6. In the 2010-11 season, he scored 5 in 17 in the league and 5 in 5 in the Europa League (2 against Dudelange in a 6:1 win and 3 more in a series vs. Lausanne that Randers lost.

    After that, he was sold to Krasnodar (a mob capital of Southern Russia) for about $3M.
     
  6. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Unlike, say, Philip Lahm, Geoff doesn't have to provide deep cover on the attacking corners due to his height (legit 6'3" vs. 5'9" Lahm), so he can score off both set pieces and penetrating runs.

    By the way, since I am missing the Fredy Montero post - his is a curious case. When he arrived in Lisbon, he scored 13 goals in his first 12 matches ... and none in the subsequent two dozen!

    So, I wouldn't point at this case yet.
     
  7. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
     
  8. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Based on his WC performance and having Barcelona on his resume
     
  9. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Lahm's only 5'7 if that. I just think with this case is that full backs from Europe/South America tend to have more ease and precision when it comes to attacking than say their American/MLS equivalents. Just a thought.

    Oddly enough Montero scored all those goals during his loan. Once it was made permanent, he's been on a goal drought for nearly a year. But it does bring into question the league differences between the Portuguese league and MLS.
     
  10. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The £11M Fulham paid for Ross McCormack would be sufficient to buy the entire roster of most MLS clubs
     
  11. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Appears even in the Championship clubs grossly overpay for players. I'm sure 11 million pounds might be enough for rosters of relegation fodder clubs in say France/Spain/Italy.
     
  12. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009



     
  13. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who has been watching MLS and who hasn't?

    Former Argyle striker Bradley Wright-Phillips close to MLS scoring record
    By HeraldSport | Posted: September 23, 2014
    By Chris Errington Chief Football Writer @ChrisErrington1

    [​IMG]
    http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Arg...ps-close-MLS/story-22967409-detail/story.html
     
  14. Mario Balotelli

    Mario Balotelli Member+

    Feb 28, 2012
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a silly way to measure a league's level. Camilo Sanvezzo was playing in Malta and then had a scoreless season in Korea. Now he's leading Liga MX in scoring. Trencito Valencia scored once for the Timbers and now he's on loan in Argentina and was one of the top scorers last season and is scoring at a good rate again for a bigger club.

    You can find horrible misses for any league. Look at the multiple open goal misses Junior Malanda had in the Bundesliga.
     
    Xenimus repped this.
  15. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Any objective measure will be a flawed approximation of reality, particularly over a sample size of one. But without these objective measures, you're left with a cacophony of unsupported opinions, which boils down to a shouting contest. There is already a considerable amount of data in this thread to make evidence-based comparisons between MLS and certain other leagues if one cares to do so.

    Regarding Camilo, it seems like he has thus far risen in level with age, which is what you'd generally expect.
     
  16. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    There are four-five fairly reliable indicators of the overall quality of a given league (that I can think of).

    Not in any particular order (but with bullet points!) :

    - club performances in international competitions (subject to league dis/parity);

    - coach and player salaries (subject to currency/cost of living adjustments);

    - transfer amounts paid for in- and out-going players;

    - ranking/performance of the national teams (WC, Euros, ANC, Copa America, Gold Cup) that are assembled from that league (during the WC'14, someone did the WC players-by-a-league table and, subsequently, WC-Goals-by-a-league table);

    - comparative performances by the players who have received substantial PT in more than one league during their prime (or reasonably close to it).

    (folks are welcome to add other criteria, as I seem to be tapping out here)

    -----------------------------------------------

    On wages, MLS' median is on League One/Bundesliga III (English/German 3rd Divisions) level. Its clubs record in the international competition (CONCACAF Champions League) is substantially lower than of the dominant regional power (Liga MX, which I personally rate on the level of the English Championship/Bundesliga II, based on the same criteria ... and my eyeball test). The transfer amounts paid for the outgoing MLS players is, as discussed in other threads, is roughly on the level of the 20th-25th Euro league (UEFA's 25th best league Serbia, to take one out of the blue, had ~ $10M worth of outgoing transfers in this past summer alone, according to Transfermarkt) and the comparative performances of players that have spent considerable time in MLS and abroad, including both the US players overseas and the foreign players in MLS, seem to indicate the same League One level.

    One more point on these cross-league player performances. There are obviously the tops and the bottom cases. Geoff Cameron, who began to play fairly well straight out the 'chute for Stoke City, would be ranked at the top of the MLS exports. Robbie Rogers and Robbie Findley, also two US national team members, would be ranked at the bottom, having failed to even make an impression in League One or League Two. Not much was probably expected of Chad Barrett but, despite being a 62 goal career MLS scorer, he was still not deemed of suitable quality for Valerenga of the 27th ranked Norway*. Pat Noonan, a career 47 goal scorer, also washed out in Norway's Alesund, while Clarence Goodson did very well at Start and not so well at Brondby ... but that's the difference in league quality also. Denmark is currently ranked UEFA 15th.

    *Norwegian posters approximated Tippeligaen being on the low-Championship/high League One level but, if Chad Barrett was an MLS mucker, then Goodson and Noonan were marginal national team contributors.
     
    Testudo repped this.
  17. kruck

    kruck Member+

    Jan 12, 2008
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    That's not accurate. Clarence Goodson became captain of Brondby within 6 months of moving to the club and helped them finish as high as 3rd.
     
  18. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    He was deemed thoroughly mediocre by the Danish BS posters and, obviously, the press. Brondby itself was perfectly willing to let him go to Turkey and to MLS.

    Which brings me back to my bullet points. When you bring in players who have washed out of a 15th ranked league - Jimmy Nielsen, David "a propos" Ousted, Chris Rolfe, Benny Feilhaber, Clarence Goodson, Lee Nguyen - you are not helping your league to get better than 15th.

    On the other hand, it's perfectly acceptable for a league ranked in the 20's or 30's.
     
  19. kruck

    kruck Member+

    Jan 12, 2008
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    1. So what? He had the opinion of the club and his locker room. They are better judges.
    2. Don't be naive, there are multiple reasons why this could happen.. finances being an obvious reason.
    3. Players and form change throughout careers. (age, developlement and injuries) - that list proves nothing.
    4. Feilhaber & Nguyen are also veterans of the Bundesliga, the EPL and PSV Eindhoven... Coaches and Injuries help dictate your career path brah.
     
  20. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    I am not naive to think that there are other reasons beside finances.

    Unfortunately for the players mentioned, finances are directly tied into their performances and, when they went from a higher paying to a lower paying league, it was aclear indication of what the global market thought of their values. Goodson was making $535K, IIRC, with Brondby and is on the books for $342K with San Jose (assuming that his salary is not written down by an allocation) and that's a pretty steep pay cut.

    BTW, these are La Liga team wage budgets - from ~ $300M for Real to under $20M for Almeria and Elche.

    http://www.tsmplug.com/football/spanish-la-liga-players-salaries/
     
    Testudo repped this.
  21. kruck

    kruck Member+

    Jan 12, 2008
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    This statement is misleading and you know it.

    On the face of it, you make it seem as if he wasn't cutting it on the field but the reality was Brondby was/is in a terrible financial state and Goodson was free to look for a new club because Brondby couldn't support his higher wages and not because he wasn't good enough on the field.

    http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2012...iants-brondby-if-are-on-the-brink-of-collaps/
     
  22. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course, Holden's tackles per game skyrocketed in England. That's obviously because MLS players are better on the ball and harder to tackle.

    Or his role changed. Nah, that can't be it. Clearly, MLS players are far better technically than Prem players.
     
  23. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    From his first season at Brondy Goodson was doing quite well. Maybe he lacked the consistency going forward, but let's be honest that club had loads of problems. Goodson was a BEAST in Norway but at the very least he was decent-to-good in Denmark. Shame he never got that move to Turkey. Think he could have excelled there. Curious to know how it ranks alongside MLS.
     
  24. Hobo

    Hobo Member+

    Apr 29, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting article on German 1860 Munich youth product Leo Stolz, who turned down a pro contract with them to play college soccer.
    http://americansoccernow.com/articles/ucla-s-leo-stolz-brings-a-heady-approach-to-soccer
    This quote is for the containment unit:
    “In MLS the level is a bit lower than 1860 Munich’s first team,” he continued, “which I played with a few times before I came to the U.S. There’s more balance in the quality of German teams because the standards are already so high, even in the youth systems.”
    In reflecting on the challenges facing the United States compared to Germany, Stolz offers a circumspect outlook on the landscape of both countries: “The systems are just different. In the States there’s more emphasis on the physical part of the game and in Germany it’s more on the technical and tactical side. So American players aren’t as technically or tactically aware as most German players, but at the same time most of the European players aren’t as physically strong as American players.”
     
    Testudo and LouisianaViking07/09 repped this.
  25. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    #100 The Irish Rover, Sep 30, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
    Jimmy Nielsen, famously, had sever gambling problems towards the end of his time in Denmark (that's lost-the-family-home serious). He moved to the States when was in the process of cleaning himself up.

    You're comparing a player who was, in effect, injured in Denmark with a player who was fully-fit in the USA.
     

Share This Page