The Containment Unit: The YA League Comparison Discussion

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Testudo, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic

    It's too difficult to compare Europe's Bball leagues - even harder than comparing European leagues - because of the qualification criteria for the EuroLeage and the EuroCup.

    All you can say with certainty is that the finalists of the EuroCup and the qualifiers of the EuroLeague don't contain that many Italian teams. The strongest countries are actually Turkey, Israel, Lithuania (very strong when you consider their small size), Russia and Greece. Spain seems to have a lot of depth and would probably be the strongest country.
     
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  2. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I imagine all of those nations besides Lithuania has loads of foreigners playing in the leagues, so perhaps the key surprise is the success of Lithuanian players within their own country leading them to shock results.
     
  3. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lithuania has had a strong national team for a loooong time. They have regularly been a top competitor at the Olympics.
     
  4. kruck

    kruck Member+

    Jan 12, 2008
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Real Madrid and Barcelona seem to be a couple of the stronger basketball clubs in Europe actually.
     
  5. Mario Balotelli

    Mario Balotelli Member+

    Feb 28, 2012
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The best leagues in Europe, excluding Euroleague which like Champion's League, are:
    1. ACB (Spain)
    2. TBL (Turkey)
    3. VTB (Russian league with a few Latvian, Czech, Finnish, etc. teams)
    4. Greece/Italy
    5. France/Germany
    6. Adriatic league (Combined Balkan league)
    7. Israel/Lithuania/Belgium
    8. Ukraine/Poland

    Lithuania's league is dominated by two teams (Rytas and Zalgiris) but those teams don't fare very well in European competitions. Think of them like Rangers and Celtic and the league like the SPL. A few of the top Lithuanians play for those teams but if they get a chance to play for a good team in Russia or Spain, they'll go. The Spanish and Greek leagues are also dominated by the top two teams but the other teams are still quite good (think of it like La Liga and Bundesliga).

    The Russian and Turkish leagues have been rising rapidly in the last few years because of how much even the lower table teams will pay. Italy and Greece have been taking a hit in the last few years because of economic problems. In the past they were considered the 2nd and 3rd best leagues. Germany, France, and Israel are good despite lower budgets because they don't have as many roster restrictions on American players.

    The top teams in Europe in my opinion are...
    1st tier: CSKA Moscow, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, Maccabi Tel Aviv
    2nd tier: Efes, Fenerbahce, Milan, Galatasaray, Partizan, Red Star
    3rd tier: Baskonia, Malaga, Valencia, Zalgiris, Lietuvos Rytas, Bilbao, Siena, Besiktas, Bayern Munich (just recently started pumping a lot of money into their team)
     
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  6. ebado

    ebado Member

    May 2, 2008
    This is a good general rundown. I might quibble with some of the tiers but it gives a good look at the state of European basketball.

    Shame the Lithuanian clubs aren't participating in VTB this season.
     
  7. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    #57 sidefootsitter, Sep 25, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
    To bring this back to the us vs. them debate (and I am in the "them" camp).

    Let's look at some more imports.

    --------------------------------------------

    Fanendo Adi - 8 goals in 1121 minutes (~ 12 1/2 matches worth) with the Timbers.

    vs.

    3 goals in 9 matches with FC Copenhagen in Denmark.

    Prior to that, he played with several clubs in Ukraine and the same 9 matches for only 1 goal with Metallurg Donetsk, 3 matches no goal with Dynamo Kiev and 9 matches with only 1 goal for Tavria. Overall, his Ukrainian sojourn was 22 matches with 2 goals.

    His greatest success was in his two separate stints with Trencin (Slovakian top league), where he averaged about a goal every two matches - 17 in 39 in 2009-10 and 10 in 19 in 2012-13.

    -------------------------------------

    Giles Barnes - once a promising starlet, his last English employer was Doncaster in the Championship where he played in 33 matches with one goal in 2011-12. In MLS, he had 9 goals in 32 matches in 2013 and 8 goals in 28 matches so far in 2014.

    ----------------------------------------

    Claudio Bieler - his top seasons were with Liga de Quito in 2009-11 (35g in 63 m) and 2012 (20 in 36). He washed out in Argentina - 8g in 36m with Racing in 2010 and 5g in 30m with Newell's in 2011. In 2013, he had 10g in 29m (25 starts) with Sporting KC in MLS.

    ------------------------------------------

    Blas Perez - prior to coming to MLS, he was the leading scorer in the Mexican 2nd Division (Liga de Ascenso) in 2010-11, splitting time with Leon and the Indios (22 goals in 40 matches over three halves).

    His MLS stats are 9 goals in 20 matches (19 starts/1,705 min) in 2012, 11 in 25 (21 starts/2,019 min) and 10 in 26 (21 starts/1,797 min).

    -----------------------------------------

    Saer Sene - last gig was with Bayern München II, then in the 3rd Bundesliga, where he scored 11 goals in 37 matches prior to signing with MLS. With the New England Revolution, he had 11 goals in 25 matches (21 starts/1934 min) in 2012 and 5 goals in 24 matches (14 starts, 1,218 matches).

    --------------------------------------------

    A player fit on a club is a variable but it all washes out in the long run if there are many samples to choose from. The worst case scenario, a new coach is hired or a player moves to another club or another league. Besides, if you blame everything on a coach or the teammates rather than one a particular player, then you're encroaching into the Freddy Adu/Jozy Altidore territory.*

    Otherwise, you end up with a notion that statistics is void of any meaning.

    * This doesn't mean it can't happen. All one has to do is to look at Emmanuel Adebayor, who got on the wrong side of AVB at Tottenham and barely played and yet was immediately returned to the starting lineup by Tim Sherwood and, this season, Mauricio Pochettino. But, unless there are clear instances of personal animosity, I'd chalk it off to a player simply not being good enough.
     
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  8. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    And now, let's take a look at (selected) exports.

    Chris Rolfe scored 35 goals in 103 starts (123 total) in MLS prior to departing as a free agent. In his two years with Aalborg, he scored 6 goals in 35 matches. After returning to MLS, he scored 8 in 19 in his first season back/2012. 2013, he had 4 in 26 starts (31m/2135 min total) and he has 6 goals in 20 starts (21m/1,755 min).

    ------------------------------------------------

    Kenny Cooper - in his last season and a half with FC Dallas, he had 25 goals in 45 matches (all starts, 3,955 min, 44 match equivalent). With TSV 1860 München (Bundesliga II), he had 2 in 13 matches, then was loaned to Plymouth Argyle in January, 2010. 7 matches with no goals and his option was not picked up (Plymouth was a disaster then financially anyway) and Kenny returned to MLS, where he scored 8g in 2562 min with Portland, 18 in 2505 with NYRB, 6g in 1741 with FC Dallas, 3g in 985 with Seattle.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    Edson Buddle - in his last three season with the LA Galaxy prior to his departure to Germany, he had 37 goals in 5,582 min (71 matches, 54 starts, 62 match equivalent). With FC Ingolstadt 04, he had 9 goals in 31 appearances (many were subs, as I recall), making him one of the most successful MLS exports.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Robbie Findley - in his last three seasons with RSL, he had 23 goals in 4599 min (78 matches, 40 starts, 51 match equivalent). Robbie signed with Nottingham Forest in January, 2011, scoring 3 goals in 25 appearances. In the middle of the 2012 season, he was loaned to the League Two club Gillingham, making 7 appearances with no goals before having his loan terminated. Early in 2013, he agreed to part NF and return to MLS.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    Kei Kamara - in his last 3 1/2 seasons in MLS (half a year loan to Norwich of the EPL), he scored 37 goals in 8512 minutes (107 starts, 94.5 match equivalent). He subsequently departed to Middlesbrough of the Championship, where he scored 4 goals in 25 matches. In August, 2014, he agreed to terminate his contract.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    The DNP Club - Robbie Rogers (Leeds, Stevenage), Jonathan Bornstein (Tigres, Atlante, Queretaro), Marco Pappa (Heerenveen) were basically the unused subs in matches for which they were eligible and available to appear.
     
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  9. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Can we compare wage salaries between MLS and the 2nd divisions of Spain/England/Italy/Germany? Find some common ground. I can't imagine the average wage in France's Ligue 1 is so much greater than that of MLS, same with Portugal/Russia.
     
  10. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think PSG salaries might be more than all of MLS. One Zlatan buys a lot of Sam Cronins.
     
  11. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    You're right. But PSG salaries are probably more than every French club combine outside of those in the CL and maybe Europa. They drastically up the average wages in the league.
     
  12. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    The Bundesliga recorded its ninth straight turnover record during the 2012-13 season, continuing its lasting growth with 2.17 billion euros and topping its previous year’s amount by 4.4 per cent. The Bundesliga recorded 383.5 million euros in operative profits, the highest of all time. Seventeen of 18 clubs were in the black with turnover before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortisation (EBITDA). On the expenditures side, salaries for players and coaches remained stable at 39 per cent.

    The Bundesliga 2 recorded the highest turnover in its history with 419.4 million euros (a 9.1 per cent increase on last season), and fifteen of the 18 second division clubs recorded positive EBITDA numbers. The DFL Deutsche Fußball Liga made the announcement at today’s presentation of the Bundesliga Report 2014 in Frankfurt am Main.


    http://www.bundesliga.com/en/liga/news/2013/0000284518.php

    So, an average Buli II club has ~ $30M in revenues and, if they maintain the same ratio of player payroll to gross receipts as their Buli I brethren, those amount to $12M, which is an amount often mentioned by the Germany based posters. Odds are that the gamut runs from ~ $8'ish on the low end to $20'ish on the high, slightly lower than in the English Championship in general.

    Compared to MLS, the rosters are obviously more evenly created. If $6-$15M is designated for the starting rotation (top 15 or so players), then average wages run $400K-$800K. IIRC, Kenny Cooper got about $800K from 1860 and Edson Buddle got about $750K from Ingolstadt. Edson also got to drive an Audi while he was there.
     
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  13. ucraymond

    ucraymond Member

    Mar 18, 2006


    Well, it's settled. Clearly the Bundesliga II is worse than MLS.

    (I'd prefer we mostly stick to the patient accumulation of comparison data, instead of random snark, but this was too good to pass up...)
     
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  14. ucraymond

    ucraymond Member

    Mar 18, 2006
    If you're going to advocate a statistical approach, you should be aware that it doesn't work if you only cite data points that are in your favor. That's how people "discovered" cold fusion.

    For example, you left out Geoff Cameron and Stuart Holden, who are in similar time frames to the examples you cite, and who paint a rather different picture.

    Testudo's list is a good start, but it does leave out some players. Can we keep updating it?
     
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  15. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Geoff Cameron - 116 matches with Houston Dynamo - 11 goals; 72 matches with Stoke City - 1 goal.

    Stuart Holden - 88 matches with Houston - 15 goals; 30 matches with Bolton - 2 goals.

    Aren't these numbers in "my favor" as well?
     
  16. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow! That's a pretty big difference.

    It's almost as though he spent a significant chunk of time in Houston playing a different position than what he played at Stoke.
     
  17. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Ya, he played in central midfield or central defense at Houston rather than at fullback, so he went forward a lot more often for Stoke.
     
  18. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    @sidefootsitter

    Could you run a comparison of Michael Bradley's goalscoring in MLS vs. Holland? I think that would be interesting.
     
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  19. ucraymond

    ucraymond Member

    Mar 18, 2006
    In his last three seasons in MLS, Stuart Holden appeared 62 times, scoring 9 goals mostly as an attacking midfielder. He was a best XI selection in 2009. Signed with Bolton but broke his leg.

    In the 2010-2011 season he was named the player of the year for Bolton, playing as a central midfielder, appearing 29 times and scoring 2 goals. He was named best player in the Premier League of the first half of the year by the Guardian. We all know what happened after that.
     
  20. ucraymond

    ucraymond Member

    Mar 18, 2006
    Juan Agudelo appeared 71 times in his last 3 MLS regular seasons (44 starts), scoring 18 goals and getting 7 assists.

    According to Whoscored, he appeared 8 times for Utrecht, scoring 3 goals and getting 3 assists, and was given a 6.8 rating, which is pretty average in that league. Posters in this forum can probably add more context. Since then he has been on a mission to prevent us gathering any more comparative statistics.
     
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  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Honest debate? What's that?

    This post is so disingenuous it has to be trolling, or some kind of ironic meta-comment about the title of this thread.
     
  22. ucraymond

    ucraymond Member

    Mar 18, 2006
    Yura Movsisyan scored 20 goals in 71 regular-season appearances (41 starts) in his last 3 MLS seasons.

    At Randers, he scored 12 goals in 30 appearances in 2009-2011, if I'm reading a Danish-language page right. He was team MVP the following season at Krasnodar in the Russian Premier League. There he scored 23 goals in 50 appearances over two seasons for a struggling team. He followed this up with further success at Spartak Moscow.
     
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  23. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Age a factor. Movsisyan was barely 22 when he left MLS. Got to Russia just as he was pulling into his prime.
     
  24. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Dude has been a huge shock of a success in the Russian league. Who'd have thought this?
     
  25. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Admit it, you know better than that. Fullbacks score the least of all the outfield positions, because they're more often providing the service when they go forward, and they're usually held back on set pieces while the center backs get in the box.
     

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