The Containment Unit: The YA League Comparison Discussion

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Testudo, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. Sizmik

    Sizmik Member+

    Dec 21, 2011
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #576 Sizmik, Jul 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
    Im not talking about one year man, im talking about in general. Schalke sold everyone and didnt have a good team last year, give them another year or two and that wont happen. In general who would win in a game? We both know the answer. PL is becoming a top 5-6 dominated league and all others might as well stop trying, its the new Liga. Just buy championships.

    Its something i hate about soccer and about the only thing i like about the MLS. Put all teams on an even playing field and let skill sort them out. Dont just let teams buy wins and losses. Its counter productive in my opinion. Its why football is still the GOAT in the US and always will be. It takes skill from the top down to create wins and losses, not just throwing money at a wall. Man U still doing it and cant get wins, that tells you how sht they really are

    Its also why my favorite club is Dortmund. The scouting department is fantastic, and they do it the right way. They have the money to go get anyone they want but they would rather take a smart approach and get value out of players. They took Dembele for less than 20 mill and make 150 off of him, plugged in Sancho and they are about to do it again. They run their program like it should be run instead of like Barca taking multi level loans to buy players....
     
  2. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I think you're going overboard. PL teams are weak indeed but they look even more dreadful due to so much talent in the top 6 teams.
     
  3. Sizmik

    Sizmik Member+

    Dec 21, 2011
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Id take the bottom 10 in the Bundy against the Bottom 10 in any other league. Serie, La Liga, and EPL. From top to bottom Bundy is the most competitive, but the top notch in Liga and EPL are much better due to the money. Bayern just wont play that game and neither will BVB. Its a dumb game to play
     
  4. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Washington DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Budesliga is the most competitive, but that by itself doesn't mean its bottom feeders are any stronger than bottom feeders in the EPL. Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive...
     
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  5. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I'd argue that would be La Liga
     
  6. Sizmik

    Sizmik Member+

    Dec 21, 2011
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i wont argue too much, its close
     
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  7. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the EPL has been slightly overrated at times, but eventually the huge financial advantage enjoyed by its clubs from top to bottom becomes too much to handle. Look at what the 15th best club in England can afford vs Freiburg. It’s just not close. Transfer smarts, developmental savvy, and good coaching can’t overcome financial might when the money gap gets this big.
     
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  8. O request to do this in this forum/thread:
     
  9. VBCity72

    VBCity72 Member+

    Aug 17, 2014
    Oki, J-pan
    Club:
    Plymouth Argyle FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That Champions League money looking real nice.
     
  10. Nope, that money is on the PSV and Ajax bank account. The team values areadded by the clubs on the players they promoted from the youth teams or developed/showed their true potential after buying them. Examples are Lozano with PSV and Ihattaren. The latter is a youth product and with 17 years making a huge impact, so much that all Dutch soccer fans are praying: "Please donot choose Morocco".
    That 7 million value is outdated as he with 17 YO is already a class better than Donny van de Beek, for whom Real wanted to pay 50 million.
    Donny's value isnot spent money but added value as he costed nothing being a kid from Ajax since he played soccer. So that DvdB value is pure profit.
    That 991 Eredivisie players value is a couple of hundred million short of the true value as many prospective Orange players arenot in the market at all, like AZ stars Stengs (20 yo) and Boadu (18 yo). These are the future Orange strikers.
    From those Transfermarkt stats interesting things can be noted.
    The total value of the mls players is built by 650 players with an average age of 26.4 years.
    The Eredivisieplayers value is compounded by only 471 players with an average age of 24.2 years.

    It would be interesting to see how many players in Mls and Eredivisie are U20.
     
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  11. wynaldaisagod

    wynaldaisagod Member

    Ajax
    United States
    Aug 9, 2019
    Alright sorry for having this discussion in the wrong thread...

    Yes- it is funny that you bring up the top 6. The top 6 teams in the Eredivisie are way better than the top 6 in MLS. Although I will say after the big 3, the quality of the Eredivisie goes down tremendously. Also a few Vitesse players for whatever reason have come to MLS the last few years -- none have been exactly dominant.

    But once you get into the middle, the leagues are quite even and when you get to the bottom, MLS is just better. 11 of 18 Eredivisie squads are valued at 16m or less. It's just 3 of 28 MLS. The travel is much more difficult. The weather is much more difficult. MLS has better attendance. Check out the 538 numbers of where the clubs land.

    Check out this article on Eredivisie budgets... some of the teams have lower budgets than the lowest MLS payroll: https://www.vtbl.nl/nieuws/artikel/...divisie-dit-zijn-de-budgetten-van-de-18-clubs

    The truth is Ajax is single handily keeping the Eredivisie in even the top 15 leagues in Europe. Once you get past them, PSV........ Feyenoord..... Utrecht/AZ/Vitesse (who I like a lot this year)... MLS is a better league in the middle/bottom and honestly it's not even close when it comes to budget and squad values. But that's the problem with MLS: no one team can prop up the league like Ajax (and a lesser extent PSV) does to the Eredivisie.
     
  12. typing error. Stand corrected.
    That's where the comparison goes wrong. In these clubs young players coming from the youth are valued for peanuts by Transfermarkt. It doesnot reflect their intrinsic worth.
     
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  13. wynaldaisagod

    wynaldaisagod Member

    Ajax
    United States
    Aug 9, 2019
    Yeah I don't like that site that much when comparing teams. But it does illustrate the difference in quality in the middle/bottom of the leagues.
     
  14. The Potter

    The Potter Member+

    Aug 26, 2004
    England
    Club:
    Stoke City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Bayern buy all the best talent in Germany including (and particularly) from Dortmund and win the league every year, it's a real problem. Having a top 6 (more like a top 2 really) is fine.
     
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  15. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    [moved from other thread]

    This is a key question of where the USMNT's head is at as reasonable arguments can be made between:

    - train at a lower level but get minutes in the minor leagues (MLS/B2/Championship)

    vs.

    - train at an elite level but it's much harder to get first team minutes.

    MLS/B2/Championship is a higher level than Jong Ajax but I think it's safe to say that there are more high potential players (UCL knock-out or at least multi-season major league players) in the top Dutch youth teams than in all of MLS combined but that's my opinion. I also think that strong Jong players are much closer to playing in the majors than almost all MLS players given the calendar and the historic difficulties in transferring across the North Atlantic.

    Given MLS' paucity of developing any elite players (Adams would be the first cradle to success and it's early yet), I think the USMNT is best served having a preference that our best talents go to the world's best programs. the USMNT can support this by consistently choosing up-and-coming youth players in elite programs and not adhering to the "must get first team / first division minutes" policy.

    Conversely, I think it is MLS' incredibly strong preference that the USMNT policy be focused on first team/first division minutes and see that they are "lucky" to have a coach who firmly falls into this opinion.
     
  16. NietzscheIsDead

    United States
    May 31, 2019
    I think it's much more practical than that. It's not an abstract analysis over the quality of league play. It's a question as to whether or not these physically undeveloped young players can contend against strong men who can break their bones (can hurt them and their confidence).

    Ledezma and Mendez clearly struggled against physical players at the U20 world cup. They are still learning against undeveloped kids who are roughly their age.

    Physical development is so real and ever-present in sports that we don't really pay it any attention. Aaronson has proven that he can withstand and even thrive in a more physical environment. The players on youth teams have not.

    It takes an incredibly special player to move to a full national team from a youth team, and usually its because of some physical trait that the player has that make them stand out even among full grown men who go 90 minutes every week. If a player runs like the wind or finishes like magic, the player may get a chance.

    Coaches are reluctant to put young men on the field with professionals. Pro's with guile can really take advantage of them in a way that can even hurt their development if its not handled correctly.
     
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  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I understand the physical part but on the other hand, MLS players clearly struggle against higher speed/intelligence while the elite programs offer that as an offset as that's how they train.

    Furthermore, we have a specific mechanism to look at MLS players (Camp Cupcake) - we should offer young professionals who are competing at the highest level at least an equal opportunity.
     
  18. NietzscheIsDead

    United States
    May 31, 2019
    The aforementioned players (Mendez, Ledezma) are both MLS academy products.
     
  19. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    What does that have to do with our discussion?
     
  20. NietzscheIsDead

    United States
    May 31, 2019
    MLS is producing players that other academies are poaching. MLS academies have begun the work of producing players who are making the jump to other academies and doing relatively well.

    The MLS professional league product is obviously not as high quality as some other leagues, but it appears as though the prospects coming through MLS are of an increasingly high quality.
     
  21. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I agree with that the US is producing players that elite academies want.

    what does that have to do with the USMNT picking players between MLS and the best training programs where it's very hard to break into the A-team?
     
  22. wynaldaisagod

    wynaldaisagod Member

    Ajax
    United States
    Aug 9, 2019
    I think it's a giant misnomer that Jong Ajax/PSV/etc. are stocked with these great, high potential players. Lots of guys on those teams are considered kinda shuttle filter (too good for Eerste Divisie, not good enough for the big clubs). Most of the best miss lots of games for YCL, CL, EL or benches on Eredivisie. It's a strange league honestly that has a fairly low standard. Too many turf fields. Not a lot of good environments. A little above USL/well below MLS.

    Playing first team minutes is how guys develop. Being at a huge club and playing in development league is not. I'll give the caveat that the Dutch developmental league is way better than most.

    But using Mendez as an example (because I've posted about him too much as an Ajax/US fan)-- IMO he's just not good enough to make it at Ajax. It was an interesting move from the standpoint of seeing if he can make it at a big club. But so far he's started 2 matches: Once he was pulled at HT, the other because tons of players were unavailable for CL/YCL. Has this move really helped his career?
     
  23. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadion_de_Goffert
    upload_2019-10-7_22-59-49.png
    Nicknamed "De bloedkuul" (the Blood pit)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkstad_Limburg_Stadion
    upload_2019-10-7_22-58-24.png

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Verlegh_Stadion
    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Geusselt
    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadi...19_Maastricht,_Geusseltstadion,_westzijde.jpg
    The exterior of De Geusselt
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    De Graafschap Stadium "De Vijverberg", capacity 12,600
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    FC Den Bosch stadium "de Vliert"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Vliert

    [​IMG]
     

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