The Containment Unit: The YA League Comparison Discussion

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Testudo, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    So the "old men" league produced a Turkish talent for export in 2017 ... good for them ... but it does not change the fact that the Turkish league has the highest average age of players and is a league that mainly pick up foreign "names" past their prime ... even more so than MLS has done in the past ...
     
  2. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I appreciate your insider info. I respect your passion for defending the kid. However.

    This is overboard. Does he fit England, or Italy, or Spain? Or Montenegro? They're all Europe.
     
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  3. Giggsy1986

    Giggsy1986 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 27, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Is it overboard or are you not understanding the generalization of Europe being a higher level of play?? Europe requires more technique and intelligence than those in MLS
     
  4. Dirt McGirt

    Dirt McGirt Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Phoenix, AZ
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    90% of American soccer fans need to come down off of this.
     
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  5. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. “Europe?” OK, what about San Marino? The Faroe Islands?
    2. At this point in time, it obviously doesn’t suit him. Cuz he’s a scrub.
     
  6. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member

    May 31, 2016
    MLS is better than a majority of leagues on the Continent of Europe.

    let's hope akale can break through in La Liga, but if he can't there are plenty of other leagues on the euro continent inferior to MLS that he can play in. His career by no means would be over!!
     
  7. jjmack

    jjmack Member

    Mar 20, 2015
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    This thinking is why we weren’t in the World Cup. Just because MLS calls itself a first division league doesn’t mean it is.
     
  8. soccerndo

    soccerndo Member

    Jan 16, 2012
    Club:
    AC Milan
    frankburgers said:
    Villarreal C until he’s 28
     
  9. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Youtube: Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is ironic, because the main reason the depth was depleted was due to prejudice against domestic MLS players and an improper assessment of the level relative to some random foreign leagues like you're seemingly guilty of.

    It transferred over to snobbish against Bjorn too because he played in lowly Bulgaria (which doesn't have historic prestige) due to special circumstances, but that was really an anomaly. The bulk of the players it effected plied their trade stateside.

    There were better excuses for Bjorn or even Novakovich for why they existed at levels not befitting of their abilities. In the case of Gooch, he has only himself to blame. They didn't get chances. But Gooch made 11 appearances in the EPL, then 22 last year in the Championship. Did not make an impression. Now he is in a small sample dropping to the 3rd division. So let him prove it over a bigger one and at the next level this time at least before we start demanding his integration. Maybe he is indeed a late bloomer. But right now there's not a major difference between him and Ariyibi, who people also suggested we call up, and they were wrong. So this should be allowed to play out.
     
  10. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    When did Mordor get a league?
     
  11. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    All leagues are fairly easy to rank if you look at their average salaries, and start from a position that players and their agents are not idiots. Now, I don't think it works out that each dollar or euro or pound or yen spent equates to a quality point and just add up the money spent and it's an exact list. But it isn't far off that.
    Players move around between leagues. Teams that acquire players generally are those that offered the most, or at least a very competitive salary. Some players are overpaid for reasons outside of simple ability, but those are rare cases.
    The 2014 numbers put MLS around 22, so the above list is about there. To rank MLS more recently, this is a good starting place:
    [​IMG]
    Hmmm, that may not be a starting point at all. I can't tell if the chart will paste
     
  12. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Too simplistic.

    England has always had the top money but only now they're showing better in Europe, for several years they had the most money but La Liga was clearly stronger, from top to bottom (including Europa League too).
     
  13. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's a simple game.
    As i said, the money spent isn't an exact 1 to 1 on quality, but it is close. Look at La Liga, or Serie A, or the Bund or the Prem. Who spends the most money? Who's at the top? Obviously, clubs spending less can break through against richer clubs, but only kind of. The Prem is interesting because there's so much money throughout it that bottom third sides spend more than some top third sides in the Bund or La Liga. There may well be a top side beyond which it doesn't really matter, beyond which the players are all so amazing that it doesn't matter as much. But that's at the very top.
    If this recent trend in MLS has seen them climb from the 22nd highest paying league to the 18th, they will have increased in quality, and probably by about four spots. It's possible when they were 22nd in spending, they were as low as the 25th best league, or the 19th. but it wasn't at all likely that they'd be outside of that band. They would not be the 10th best league on Earth if spending like the 22nd.
    Unless, as I said, your assumption is that athletes, agents and clubs are all idiots. I believe they generally know what they're doing.
     
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  14. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Well, if money were that important, the Emirates league would be much better than any South American league outside Brazil.

    That's not the case.

    I think the only way to make an accurate ranking would be to watch enough games from as many leagues as possible. As noted, some leagues send impressive clubs to continental competitions but following the league itself is hard if not impossible (my proto-example: the Linafoot league in the Democratic Republic of Congo --impossible to follow, but Vita and Mazembe are very good clubs when they play the African Champions', I can only speculate their league must be fairly strong since clubs like Motema Pembe and Lupopo seem to give them more trouble than the African clubs they face there...).
     
  15. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    And yet the top teams in leagues around the world are the richest teams, and the teams spending the most money. If it works for clubs, it works for leagues.
    I didn't care enough to do much of a search, but what I could find quickly shows footballers in UAE earn right around $40,000 a year in the middle range, and $50,000 a year for better players. There are a few very high end players that don't look to have been included in these averages, but I don't see how that would surpass what four years ago was a $213k average in Argentina.
    Watching a league is a good way to get a sense of the general quality, but it's a poor and entirely subjective way to determine how leagues rank. Inter-league, non-friendly play is a better guage, but only really gets at the top end quality.
     
  16. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Washington DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Just as an informational update. MLS average salary is around 285,000 pounds at the moment. the average salary in MLS has more than doubled since 2011. I would like to see the median salary as I think that gives a better picture, but it is quick telling that MLS salaries have grown exponentially.

    I don't think salary levels are the end all be all to league quality, but they do tell part of the story.
     
  17. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    #542 Ceres, Oct 12, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
    Not quite ... Population size and salaries are not really a reliable measuring stick in Europe when you look below the top-5 leagues that are obviously able to pay more than the rest and are able to attract the best of players.

    But then it become more of a blur when you look at the follwing 20 or so leagues ... Russia is a huge country, but to be honest, not many Western Europeans want to go there, even if the money is big ... and then they are also quite nationalistic, in the sense that they do not really like fielding foreign players and the Russian players themselves also rather like to stay and be a Star in Russia and so only move abroad to the big leagues in very small numbers ... Turkey is a bit the same, though they like their older foreign "names" ... but it's mainly a league for "old men" ..

    Then we have some leagues like in Belgium, The Netherlands and Denmark where the money can be ok and the quality of youth development is very high, but also the export of talent to the top leagues ... so they are difficult to rank properly, because the players are no doubt of good quality when you are able to keep the export that constantly high, but on the other hand a huge export of players also damage the general stability and consistency of a team and so also the posibility of making good results on a more regular basis, which is also why Russia and "old men" Turkey do a bit better in the ranking ... not really because they are bigger countries or pay more, but because they simply keep their own players for longer periods of time which add to their stability and consistency.

    Then you have other but smaller "old men leagues" like Cyprus and Greece that are able to show some consistency ... to some extend also the Czech Rep. and Poland (that is actually among the big countries in Europe, but to no effect in the ranking) .. fighting it out with a very small and poor Croatia that on the other hand produce much more talent, but also Switzerland that is small but rich and so able to pick up good players.

    If it was all about population size and/or money ... Russia and Poland should be doing better ... while Croatia and Denmark should be doing much worse ... so clearly there are different reasons why leagues are doing good or bad, when it comes to the leagues below the top-5 ...

    The average age of players being fielded on the pitch by league :
    http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/atlas/en/
     
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  18. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Rankings are impossible and probably completely pointless after you get out the top league. Belgian to Danish to Dutch could well change during the course of a season, based on a newest batch of kid stars to blow up somewhere.
    And yes, there are instances in which Turkey keeps it's top players for longer stretches of their careers for reasons other than money. they are not the norm. Conversely, yes, player develop in Denmark and Ned and Belgium then leave for Germany, Spain, France and England. But most top players when they leave, leave for the money, and when they stay, they stay for the money.
    Unless we assume footballers and their agents are total idiots, talent flows to money. I admit, as I stated earlier, it isn't an exact relationship. The market overpays for English players, the result of having 44 clubs that on a global scale pay a lot of money for players and all in need of local.
    The top 10 paying leagues may not be the ten best leagues. But they are certainly in the discussion, they are close. MLS recently passed LigaMX in terms of average pay (which I found surprising), and Liga MX remains a superior league. But the trend shows the leagues are getting closer, and if the pay trend continues, that will flip.
    And yes, youth development is a way to cut costs and improve a league, but top players will leave, and they will leave because of better pay..
    Players like to be paid more, not less, for their skills Again, unless players and their agents are idiots.
     
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  19. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    #544 Ceres, Oct 13, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
    In the longer run, moving to the English PL or Championship where the money can be huge, is not always the clever thing to do as a first move for a young talent who is moving abroad for the first time.. at least that lesson has been learned by the Dutch and Danes ...and now perhaps also by the irish though their Dutch performance director :

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/so...ook-beyond-england-to-the-continent-1.3656348

    Danish talents usually do not look that much at the money and size of the club, but often plan years ahead, taking a first step by just moving abroad, which can be a difficult step in itself, moving to a foreign country and different culture, and then pick the club where they seem to have the best chance of being a regular starter and so seem most eager to sign them ... then the next step will be moving to something bigger and better and eventually to the English PL where the money is huge ... but money itself is not really first priority for a first move abroad.
     
  20. #545 feyenoordsoccerfan, Nov 21, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
    You forget the infamous "Helmond Cup", talked about by fans all over Europe.

    Now in the possession of Barcelona.
     
  21. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Okay, but this wasn't the discussion we were having. We were talking about overall league quality. If you're talking about a 16 year old signing his first professional contract, or an 18 year old moving outside of his area for the first time, of course they're smart to consider long term as well as short term earning potential.
    But the point of making a move to, say, Union Berlin, where the young player will have a greater chance of being central to plans, and therefore get a lot more attention, than, again, say MCity, at the start of a career is to be able to make a much bigger money move later on. It's better to set yourself up for the $5 million contracts when in your prime.
    There are, of course, a lot of people who would be thrilled to earn $180k a year (about the average salary in Danish first) play footie. Top football talents, however, are usually not among them. they are, by definition, a driven bunch.
    The young players you are talking about are quite important, but they aren't defining overall league quality and they do not, on their own, flip the script on talent flowing to cash.
     
  22. DirectK

    DirectK Member

    United States
    Jun 27, 2018
    Sorry if this has been talked to death, but...

    What's the general consensus about second divisions? Would we rate any of the Championship, 2. Bundesliga, La Liga 2, Serie B, etc., ahead of, say, the Eredivisie or the Danish or Belgian top flights in terms of quality?

    I started thinking about this because one of the most knowledgeable posters about one of the most discussed YAA kids seemed very sanguine about the possibility of him ending up in La Liga 2 next season (when he'll turn 23) and it struck me that I just don't know if the Spanish second division is way higher quality than first-team football in a smaller country.
     
  23. You could make a rating by comparing two things of those leagues.
    First by how many internationals play in that league. You might even give a weight to that player derived from the ranking of the national team he plays for.
    Second is how much players cost being bought from those leagues.
     
  24. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    There's also the money they spend bringing in players. This only really applies to the English Championship, as they spend a lot of money building teams because their owners, apparently, hate money.
    The wiki chart only shows up to 16-17 but would indicate that both the Championship and 2Bl (in which clubs average about $40m a year) are substantially richer than the top leagues in Netherlands, Portugal, Belgium ($28m to $23m per club per year).
    Just as an FYI, MLS came in at $43m pc/py while Liga MX was at $32m.
     
  25. Ceres

    Ceres Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Aarhus, Denmark
    Club:
    AGF Aarhus
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    If you are a top talent playing for top club in the Danish Superliga you may get picked for the Danish NT or the U-21's but there is absolutely no chance for that to happen if you play in La Liga 2, Serie B and little to no chance if you play for a top team in the 2nd Bundesliga and also very little chance it will happen if you play in the English Championship ... unless you are heading for promotion or have recently been relegated from the English PL ...
     
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