The Containment Unit: The YA League Comparison Discussion

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Testudo, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We've got to give some credit to @bshredder for the concept here, too, which he would surely recoil from in abject disgust :D

    I'd argue it's a vital topic for this forum with implications that run through pretty much every thread here. An informed discussion, for those who choose to partipate or simply consult it, could be a worthwhile addition. But it's also a place you can redirect the off-topic urinating contests when they pop up in other threads where they don't belong. And can be safely ignored by bshredder, if not you & your fellow mods, but I tend to think the issue having a home here will tone down the testiness when the issue inevitably pops up elsewhere. Also, pointing to this thread will provide a good warning to a poster to keep it on topic and hopefully spare mods the effort of having to intervene.

    Long overdue, really.
     
    ucraymond repped this.
  2. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the same general direction of your part 2 to-be, but going back farther, and copied from one of the countless off-topic food fights that inspired this thread, here's a non-comprehensive list of top MLS players who left MLS and the leagues they went to:

    Sacha Kljestan to Belgium
    Robbie Rogers to the Championship
    Andy Najar to Belgium
    Troy Perkins to Norway
    Rafael Marquez to Liga MX
    Maurice Edu to Scotland
    Cuauahtemoc Blanco to Ascenso MX
    Kei Kamara to the Championship
    Michael Parkhurst to Denmark
    Robbie Findlay to the Championship
    Freddie Ljungberg to Scotland
    Camilo to Liga MX
    Kenny Cooper to Bundesliga.2
    Marco Pappa to Holland
    Jonathan Bornstein to Liga MX
    Edson Buddle to Bundesliga.2
    Tim Ream to the Championship
     
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  3. soccersubjectively

    soccersubjectively BigSoccer Supporter

    Jan 17, 2012
    Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Woooo 21st!

    1. England - Premier League (185)
    2. Spain - Liga BBVA (180)
    3. Germany - Bundesliga (172)
    4. Italy - Serie A (170)
    5. France - Ligue 1 (155)
    6. Brazil - Brasileirao Serie A (150)
    7. Portugal - Liga ZON Sagres (145)
    8. Russia - Prem'er Liga (140)
    9. Turkey - Super Lig (135)
    10. Netherlands - Eredivisie (134)
    11. Ukraine - Premyer-Liha (130)
    11. Mexico - Premiera Division (130)
    11. Argentina - Premier Division (130)
    14. Greece - Superleague (125)
    15. Belgium - Jupiler Pro (122)
    16. England - Championship (120)
    16. Germany - 2. Bundesliga (120)
    16. Brazil - Brasileirao Serie B (120)
    19. Romania - Liga 1 (118)
    20. Scotland - SPL (117)
    21. Denmark - Superliga (115)
    21. France - Ligue 2 (115)
    21. Italy - Serie B (115)
    21. USA - MLS (115)
    21. South Korea - K-League (115)
    21. Spain - Liga Adelante (115)
    27. Switzerland - Axpo Super League (114)
    28. Austria - tipp-3 Bundesliga (112)
    28. Czech Republic - Gambrinus Liga (112)
    28. Chile - Primera Division (112)
    31. Israel - Ligat HaAl (111)
    32. Poland - Ekstraklasa (109)
    33. Croatia - 1. HNL (108)
    33. Serbia - Jelen SuperLiga (108)
    33. Colombia - Liga Postobon (108)
    36. Bulgaria - A PFG (106)
    36. Slovakia - Corgon Liga (106)
    38. Norway - Tippeligaen (105)
    38. Brazil - Brasileirao Serie C (105)
    40. Belarus - Vysshaya Liga (104)
    41. Uruguay - Primera Division (103)
    42. Sweden - Allsvenskan (102)
    43. Turkey - 1. Lig (100)
    43. Argentina - Nacional B (100)
    43. South Africa - ABSA Premiership (100)
    46. Slovenia - 1. SNL (99)
    47. Hungary - OTP Bank Liga (98)
    47. Peru - Copa Movistar (98)
    49. Switzerland - Challenge League (95)
    50. Russia - Pervyj Division (92)
    50. Australia - A-League (92)
    52. China - Chinese Super League (91)
    53. Austria - Erste Liga (90)
    53. England - League One (90)
    53. Finland - Veikkausliga (90)
    53. Germany - 3 Liga (90)
    53. Greece - Football League (90)
    53. Ireland - Airtricity Premier (90)
    53. Norway - Adeccoligaen (90)
    53. Serbia - Prva Liga Srbija (90)
    53. Netherlands - Jupiler League (90)
    62. Croatia - 2. HNL (85)
    62. Israel - Liga Leumit (85)
    62. Mexico - Liga de Ascenso (85)
    65. Czech Republic - Druha Liga (80)
    65. Denmark - 1 Division (80)
    65. Italy - Serie C1 (80)
    65. Portugal - Liga Orangina (80)
    65. Scotland - First Division (80)
    65. Sweden - Superettan (80)
    65. Ukraine - Persha Liha (80)
    72. Belgium - Tweede Klasse (75)
    72. Iceland - Pepsideildin (75)
    72. Romania - Liga 2 (75)
    72. Spain - Segunda B (75)
    72. Turkey - 2. Lig (75)
    72. Colombia - Torneo Postobon (75)
    78. Slovenia - 2. SNL (74)
    79. Bulgaria - B PFG (72)
    79. Finland - Ykkonen (72)
    79. Northern Ireland - Carling Premiership (72)
    82. Belarus - Persha Liga (70)
    82. France - Championnat National (70)
    82. Hungary - NBII (70)
    82. Poland - I Liga (70)
    86. England - League Two (65)
    86. Iceland - 1. Deild Karla (65)
    88. China - Jia League (61)
    89. England - Blue Square Premier (60)
    89. Italy - Serie C2 (60)
    89. Slovakia - 2. SFL (60)
    89. Chile - Primera B (60)
    89. Uruguay - Segunda Division (60)
    89. Indonesia - Djarum ISL (60)
    89. South Korea - National League (60)
    96. Wales - Welsh Premier (58)
    97. Norway - 2. Divisjon (55)
    97. Sweden - Division 1 (55)
    99. Scotland - Second Division (53)
    100. Indonesia - Liga Ti-Phone (51)
    101. Denmark - 2 Division (50)
    101. Portugal - 2a Divisao (50)
    103. Singapore - S-League (47)
    104. Belgium - Derde Klaase (45)
    105. Malaysia - Liga Super (42)
    106. Sweden - Division 2 (40)
    106. Hong Kong - bma First Division League (40)
    106. South Africa - National First Division Inland (40)
    106. South Africa - National First Division Coastal (40)
    106. Ireland - Airtricity First Division (40)
    111. India - I-League (37)
    112. England - Blue Square North (35)
    112. England - Blue Square South (35)
    114. Scotland - Third Division (32)
    115. Indonesia - Divisi Satu (23)
    115. Malaysia - Liga Premier (23)
    117. Northern Ireland - Championship 1 (20)
    118. Northern Ireland - Championship 2 (10)


    Others:

    49th: http://www.iffhs.de/the-strongest-national-league-of-the-world/
    7th:
     
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  4. blacksun

    blacksun Member+

    Mar 30, 2006
    Seoul, Korea
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The methodology for the IFFHS rankings is hysterical. They rate Spain above England because the top teams in Spain did better in the Copa del Rey than the top English teams did in the FA Cup. I'm at a loss how anyone could even attempt to explain how that makes any sense.
     
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  5. Sifrit

    Sifrit Member

    Mar 15, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't know about the IFFHS ranking but the UEFA 5-year-ranking has Spain above England too, and by a big margin of 13 points. Then comes England with only 3 points above Germany. Then another huge drop of 12 and 13 points to Portugal and Italy respectively. Currently the points are:

    1. Spain 83.713
    2. England 70.391
    3. Germany 67.272
    4. Portugal 55.549
    5. Italy 54.510
    6. Russia 44.498
    7. France 44.250
    8. Ukraine 37.332
    9. Netherlands 36.979
    10. Belgium 30.400

    This is the only objective ranking that exisists because it's based on actual results in games played. Of course, it's flawed as well because only the top 6 or 7 teams play internationally and in some leagues there is an extreme drop-off in quality (Portugal, Holland) for the weaker teams in the league.
     
  6. blacksun

    blacksun Member+

    Mar 30, 2006
    Seoul, Korea
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you misunderstood me. I don't object to Spain being rated above England. I object to Spain being rated above England due to the results of domestic cups. In fact, the article says that the English teams were rated higher on the basis of international competition, but the domestic results made them rate Spain higher.
     
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  7. Sifrit

    Sifrit Member

    Mar 15, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Oh, all right. Was just a misunderstanding then. I agree that you can't compare leagues based on the results in domestic cups. That's absurd.
     
  8. keller4president

    Jan 5, 2006
    All I need to know is that lead-foot EJ, a completely forlorned Freddy Adu and an aging Clint Mathis all played well for mid-table Greek sides. That makes me think MLS is on par with Greece.

    Also, I think league comparisons should be based on the top 5 teams in each league - not the bottom 5, since the bottom varies so much from year to year, while the top of each league is consistent and pretty easy to compare (in Europe at least).
     
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  9. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Not a bad place to have a standing.

    Btw just glad our good players aren't leaving MLS for Scandinavia anymore. I think the last sorta "star"we had there was Clarence Goodson who almost ended up playing in Turkey before he came back to MLS
     
  10. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We are agreed they're roughly comparable mid-table.

    Depends on why you're making the comparison, but generally it's in the context of level of competition for a YA, which would necessarily include the entire league except the club the YA plays for (and even them if you throw in intrasquad training).
     
  11. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Yeah I remember for a short period EJ was scoring quite a few goals for his club in Greece and they'd have signed him were it not for his high wages. Made Olof Mellberg look like a chump in 1 match.
     
  12. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And the thumb hits the scale....

    Just kidding. (Sort of.) I appreciate the research you did, however, I think it would be a hell of alot more useful if you put the players' ages at the time in there. I mean, a similar thread a year ago using Michael Bradley would conclude that MLS is better than Holland, Germany, or Italy.
     
  13. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    Statisticians say that the median is the most representative number in statistical terms. IMO it has the same relevance here. e.g. Scotland 5 years ago had pretty good UEFA rating because Rangers and Celtic were doing well in European competitions but the mid-table teams were desperately weak, barely English D3. Portugal's Big 3 and Braga continue to give them good rankings, but the league's bottom half would be murdered in Spain's D2 or Serie B

    As for MLS guys in Greece, Mathis, according to Wikipedia, had 8 appearances and 1 goal and Adu had 5 appearances and 1 goal. I'm not sure how they could be said to have played well.

    With 5 goals in 14 appearances, you'd have to say that Johnson did pretty OK at Aris, especially playing for a weak team. The thing is he then went on loan at Preston in D3, made 14 appearances and scored nothing.

    Based on Johnson's numbers, you'd say that League One is harder that Greek D1, which is nuts. But it does illustrate the difficulties in making comparisons between leagues without the results of UEFA competitions
     
  14. SpencerNY

    SpencerNY Member+

    Dec 1, 2001
    Up in the skyway
    I wonder if other countries with professional basketball leagues are constantly comparing themselves to the NBA/other leagues.
     
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  15. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Henry scored 174 goals in 254 appearances with Arsenal, and 49 in 115 with NYRB.
     
  16. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Comparing individual player performances isn't a great metric. Looking at the top foreign players in MLS, listed above in the thread, you may notice that they are all known for having great chemistry with their MLS teammates. That may not have been true at their previous clubs. Often individual performance really boils down to how well a player fits into a system. If you were to look at the foreign players that Toronto has signed over the years, you may well conclude from their poor MLS numbers that MLS is the strongest league in the world, which is obviously not true. It's probably better to look at the aggregate, because that includes both players who are a better fit at their MLS clubs and players who are a worse fit.
     
  17. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mathis actually did play well; I watched a few of his games (admittedly on poor-quality streams) and he seemed to see the field a step ahead of his teammates. He was hurt by the fact that he was on an awful team, and got benched mostly because he clashed with the coach (as he did almost everywhere he went).

    The funny thing about Clint Mathis was that literally every goal he scored after moving to Europe was a jaw-dropping feat of technical brilliance. He didn't score ordinary goals - he either scored golazos or couldn't be bothered to shoot, it seemed. Not that surprising, given that it's Clint Mathis we're talking about.
     
  18. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    They are.

    Constantly.

    You hear "He's wonderful against X, easily good enough/not quite good enough to go up against the Bulls/Lakers/etc" incessantly in Israel & Turkey.
     
  19. kruck

    kruck Member+

    Jan 12, 2008
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Yes, I read/saw (can't remember) an interview with Donatas Motiejunas (lithuanian PF for the Houston Rockets) where he was contemptible of the claim that the American D- league (NBA minor league team system) was the second best professional basketball league in the world.

    He claimed some of the European professional leagues were better (or at least the euro - league (like Champions league for basketball)) was.

    That is a consistent debate on NBA forums as well.
     
  20. SpencerNY

    SpencerNY Member+

    Dec 1, 2001
    Up in the skyway
    I'm sure there is a contigent of posters known as Ameri-Snobs who would insist that some of the better college basketball conferences are the equivalent of most euro/latin american leagues.

    Oh look, I've gone and thread-jacked this thread-jack thread.
     
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  21. ebado

    ebado Member

    May 2, 2008
    There are. Oh there are.

    Also college to D-League comparisons.
     
  22. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    I bet there aren't many leagues that cover the alphabet as well as MLS does. San Jose Earthquakes, Los Angeles Galaxy ... if only the Wiz hadn't rebranded, we'd be the best Scrabble league in the world.
     
    dwsmith1972 repped this.
  23. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    The prime example of what Yanks shouldn't do abroad. Might have become a star in the Bundesliga...
     
  24. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Very interesting. Isn't Spain or Italy suppose to have the best leagues in Europe or maybe it was Turkey
     
  25. Testudo

    Testudo Member+

    Jan 29, 1999
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought it was impossible and it took under 48 hours. *golf clap*
     
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