The Containment Unit: The YA League Comparison Discussion

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Testudo, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What does a "true professional" mean?

    It's like you are trying to invent a term more contentious and meaningless than even "world class".
     
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  2. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Eddie Pope, for one
     
  3. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #453 bshredder, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
    And second, what does "solely developing in MLS mean?"

    Does that mean never left the league during his whole career? Or does that mean he didn't leave until after his formative years? Etc. Huge difference

    EDIT

    Also, what does "reaching the heights of US Soccer" mean? Does it mean play in a WC? Play well in a WC?

    This is really weird
     
  4. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member

    May 31, 2016
    speaking in absolutes is never the correct answer (in sports)...

    only for the sith
     
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  5. Giggsy1986

    Giggsy1986 Member+

    Jan 27, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I agree, but until we have our best players developing solely in MLS Science and Fact say that Europe must be a part of the equation

    Donovan
    Dempsey
    McBride
    Wynalda
    Pulisic
    Beasley
    Reyna
    Obrien
    Altidore
    Wood
    Sanneh
    Jermaine Jones
    Benny Feilhaber
    Geoff Cameron
    JA Brooks


    The list goes on..... Europe always played apart of their development. So no one here can say MLS is a good way to go until we actually produce a player that does well at the highest levels developing solely in the United States.
     
  6. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure about that. Cameron didn't move until he was 27.

    I don't think anyone in the entire world expects a player to do well at the highest level (im assuming you mean a WC since if you're talking about club levels, that would be some paradox) unless they play in a top 5 league, and since MLS likely won't get there in the next 50 years, this is more a discussion on whether MLS is good for preparing players.

    For our elite players, where were they from 16-24? Where should they be? That's the question I find more interesting. I think the answer for most is Europe, but some do need to stay home for comfort.

    In a perfect world, everyone could stay home until 20-22. They then outgrow their competition, like top Eredivisie players, then get sold for uber money to Europe, and their development wouldn't be stunted at all.
     
  7. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FiveThirtyEight.com ranked list of soccer leagues by country based on statistical assessment (scroll down to find the table). The top ten, in order, are Spain, Germany, England, Italy, Brazil, France, Russia, Argentina, Portugal, Turkey. MLS ranks #28. Mexico ranks #11.
     
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  8. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Amazing that Turkey outranks the NL and Belgium. How is Russia ranked so high, I do wonder? Isn't it pretty much top heavy like Portugal?
     
  9. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I agree. There are a few oddities. One factor may be constraints imposed by the extent of international club play.
     
  10. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Turkey is a retirement league for big names, with some quality clubs, kind of like Europe's version of MLS.

    Netherlands and Belgium are often ranked lower and are slipping in these types of rankings, however they are still among the absolute best leagues, if not the best, for polishing young players. It isn't just which league is better than another imo, different leagues have different purposes and strengths.
     
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  11. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Stu Holden, almost entirely in MLS.

    He was in the Guardian's midseason EPL Best XI less than a year after leaving MLS, just before suffering the injury that all but ended his career. That timing means the half-season for which he was recognized as Best XI began just six months after he left MLS. You don't develop from mediocrity into a Best XI caliber player in six months -- he was pretty much that good when he left Houston.

    Holden's earlier stint in Europe can be excluded, because he was injured and unable to train for almost the entire six months he was with Sunderland.
     
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  12. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    This is really overstated. Some of those guys were before MLS even started. It's also notoriously short on defenders. Finally, some of those guys were well into their 20s when they left MLS. And we all know that by 22-23 players are veterans, right?

    What's really important to note is that development just doesn't work with blanket statements. There are, however, trends. First trend is that MLS is actually pretty good at defensive players. The 2014 WC roster had 3 out of 4 players developed in MLS: Omar, Besler and Cameron. In addition Kyle Beckerman continued the streak of having MLS DMs in the WC. Zusi and Davis were the sole representatives in midfield for MLS and I wish we had better. Still, Mix was certainly not the answer. Dempsey is arguably MLS since he didn't leave until 23 but I won't push the issue much.

    That said. I agree that Europe is and will remain for a long time very significant for developing our player. What has changed, though, is that WC 2014 shows that MLS now contributes a non-negligible and even significant proportion of our players. And remember that this was with JK as coach and a large portion of dual citizens raised abroad.
     
  13. Giggsy1986

    Giggsy1986 Member+

    Jan 27, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC

    Omar, Beasler and Beckerman, Cameron has reached the level he is currently at by playing the EPL he would not be as good if he stayed in MLS..... my point is the European professional environment is where our kids need to be. Without promotion and relegation, our young players will never experience the rigors of the European professional environment.

    Players in MLS are just handed way too much without ever earning it, Andrew Carelton would be a much better player if he was in Europe right now that is a fact.

    My biggest fear for his is not that he won't be a good player (he already is) my fear for him is that he won't reach his potential because the environment that he is currently in is not challenging enough for him at this extremely important part of his career.

    Go east, young players, go east!............until we have promotion and relegation.
     
  14. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, we don't know that. That's a massive oversimplification.
     
  15. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Pfffft. That's what a number of people including many Europeans say to Americans.
     
  16. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    LOL. Was considering responding until I saw the pro/rel mention. No point continuing the conversation. Nothing will come of it.
     
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  17. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A ranking by FiveThirtyEight.com of 426 club teams by statisticians, providing league identification. Room for debate, obviously, but it is a decent start. Method explanation and other details HERE.
     
  18. schlomo

    schlomo Red Card

    F.C. Dallas
    United States
    Apr 6, 2017
    Im watching FCD vs. Houston. Its a contrast of the future of MLS vs. its present/past.

    One team tries to play open attacking soccer. The other team just runs into the other, literally kicks them, and constantly bowls them over. Its concacaf shitball. The ref allows it.

    Until MLS does away with that garbage it will always lag behind the big boys.
     
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  19. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    That and the lack of $$$$
     
  20. schlomo

    schlomo Red Card

    F.C. Dallas
    United States
    Apr 6, 2017
    Even without the money you can play skilled, growing young players in a league that doesn't employ a lineup featuring at least 6 full-grown goons at any given moment.
     
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  21. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How is pro/rel affecting Andrew Carleton when he's not playing much for Atlanta?

    Pro/rel probably hurts youth development, actually. Clubs chasing promotion and clubs threatened with relegation tend to sign and play "proven" veterans, and sideline their young players. Pro/rel stalled Benny Feilhaber's development when he went to Derby County, and again when he played for AGF. At Derby County, 20-year-old Feilhaber got some sub minutes in the first half of the season, but then at midseason they signed a bunch of older guys and benched all their players under 25. With AGF, he was an undisputed starter, but after the club was relegated, he wasted time running roughshod over Danish second division players who were nowhere near his level.
     
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  22. Giggsy1986

    Giggsy1986 Member+

    Jan 27, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Please tell me how Pro/Rel hurts youth development? Then it explains it to the rest of the world that has Pro/Rel.

    Benny Feilhaber hurt his development by not earning his minutes at Derby, life is not fair. Our youth players grow up in an unprofessional environment and in turn, do not live up to their long term potential because frankly training day in and day out is not at the level it needs to be. It's not at the level the rest of the world is at because frankly, MLS games DO NOT MATTER.

    If you work your way through the youth ranks to the first team in an environment that is promotion and relegation you have successfully out performed other professionals and have completely earned the trust of clubs who have a lot more to lose than MLS teams. Your day to day environment is that much more intense and every interaction you have with that level of intensity will make you that much better.

    Andrew Carelton is showing up every day to an environment that simply is not as intense as the rest of the world. It just makes it that much harder for him to live up to his potential.

    Just like Brek Shea, Teal Bunbury, Juan Agudelo, Luis Gil, Jose Villarreal, Jack McBean, Bill Hamid, Sean Johnson, etc.

    The professional environment in MLS frankly is just not that professional and will never be until teams actually have something to lose.

    When they have something to lose, our young players will really have to "earn" their playing time.
     
  23. Giggsy1986

    Giggsy1986 Member+

    Jan 27, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC

    Is Eddie Pope your example of heights of US Soccer? He was a serviceable player on the international level, nothing more.

    So if you want serviceable players that could have been much better in a more professional environment then that's fine.
     
  24. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Say what you want but we need that filler material. In the end, we can't outsource all our development. The bulk of players will have to come up in the US. Just simple logistics. If so, we must fortify our methods locally.
     
  25. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought Eddie was way over "serviceable." In his prime, he was a very, very good central defender.

    The problem with Eddie is that he didn't age well. His game dropped off big-time once he hit 31-ish.

    Mid to late 20's Pope was very solid. He was consistently good - even against top competition.
     

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