The coach's "System"

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by rhrh, Apr 14, 2013.

  1. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's fine, y.o.n.k.o. Just suggesting that maybe we weren't on the same page. Also suggesting that five or ten minutes running laps while waiting for a field to open up isn't a big deal one way or the other. I've no doubt you are correct that there are better ways of stretching out muscles that have spent 7 hours in a classroom and 45 minutes in the back seat of a car, but honestly in the big scheme of things this seems like a remarkably petty thing to argue about.
     
    jeremys_dad and dcole repped this.
  2. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Once again, I will respectfully disagree.
     
  3. Jzee

    Jzee New Member

    Sep 3, 2013
    I'm trying to figure out how do parents identify a good coach?
     
  4. Norsk Troll

    Norsk Troll Member+

    Sep 7, 2000
    Central NJ
    It can be a frustrating reality. Last season, my daughter was playing up with a team that was playing competition too good for them, and as they were always on the defensive, the coach favored his bigger, stronger more physically aggressive players, thinking they could win and hold the ball longer (of course, it was the exact opposite - being less skilled, they gave up the ball even quicker). My daughter, and a handful of other smaller but technically sound players, spent a lot of time watching from the sidelines. Come tryout season, she made a top club in her own age group and chose to leave. This weekend was the new team's first games, in a pre-season tournament. Lo and behold, the overall quality of the team is significantly better, and she is now the starting central midfielder in a 4-3-3 and played the majority of all four games (and they won all four games, 14-1, including two wins over last year's coach - sweet).

    Sometimes you gotta pull that trigger and move. It was certainly the correct decision for my daughter.
     
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  5. england66

    england66 Member+

    Jan 6, 2004
    dallas, texas
    If you are thinking of leaving after your 'contract' is up then you need to identify teams you may be interested in.
    Go watch the team play in a league game, watch how the coach behaves towards the players and officials. Don't wait until the 'try-out' period because ALL these coaches are nice as pie and on their best behavior then for ONE reason: They want your $$$. They want your name on that contract and when it's signed you are stuck for a year, can't get out of it and often your kid has to deal with mental and verbal abuse from the 'coach'

    Always remember that ALL these 'club' teams do indeed need PAYERS as much as they need PLAYERS.
     
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  6. england66

    england66 Member+

    Jan 6, 2004
    dallas, texas
    Here is a direct quote from Leo Weil, women's soccer coach at John's Hopkins University:

    "I am not the track coach. All running during practice is soccer related. If you think you need to do more running and sprinting, find time to do it on your own. If you play hard at everything we do during practice, you'll be fit enough for the games".....
     
  7. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #57 bigredfutbol, Sep 3, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
    There are all sorts of criteria, and no situation is the same. Here's a couple of things I've come to believe, WITH the important caveat that right now I'm talking U16/HS age kids. I would not apply this criteria to younger ages:

    Look at how the coach/club treats the bench players, the "B" team, etc. At the older ages, unlike younger, it's more normal/acceptable to have starters vs. bench players, and reasonably set A squads versus B squads. The question is how the kids who are "on the outside looking in" are treated. Do they get the same training and practice time? Do they actually come off the bench for significant minutes? Are they given the same latitude to try things and make mistakes on the field that the starters do?

    Secondly--and this is kind of a related point--at the older ages it's normal to focus more on winning and being competitive than at younger ages, but the question is how does the coach go about winning? Through cynical tactics and gamesmanship, or through demanding maximum effort and smart play?

    Finally--and this applies to all ages--if they coach spends a lot of time doing stuff without a soccer ball being involved, that's not a good thing. Despite my above exchange with y.o.n.k.o., I actually agree with his larger point that practice time should not be wasted on general fitness drills. In our case, field time/space is so scarce it makes sense to have the kids show up a few minutes early and run laps around the field while the teams ahead of them finish up, but once their "shift" starts and they can have their designated field space to themselves then it's time to get the soccer balls out and work on soccer.

    Just my semi-informed two cents.
     
  8. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Great point, and that's part of what I was thinking in my above post; the "B" team should really be about developing the player pool and not just signing up suckers to subsidize the operation.

    My son's been on the "B" squad at two different clubs where his age group was very strong. At the first club, the "B" team was pretty decent but they were largely ignored by the club; they practiced separately from the A team and were left out of extra training, etc. Eventually, the B team withered away as some of the better players (including my son) moved on to greener pastures, and the rest just gave up.

    At his current club, the B squad is once again pretty damn good, and in this case the entire age group trains together, the rosters are somewhat fluid from tournament to tournament, when B team players get called up to the A squad they get significant minutes and are given time to adjust to the game and aren't benched for mistakes. It's early, but I'm tentatively confident that this setup will work better and the B team will stick together. Of course, bigredfutbol Jr. is hopeful that once he catches up to his peers physically he'll make the A team permanently, but for now I really can't complain. He played with the A squad in a tourney this weekend, and he played well--but the thing is, out of 40 kids in the age group, I'd say there's around 30 (more or less) who you could argue can cut it week to week on the A squad, and they can't take them all. And the 10 or so players who you have to say just aren't good enough for the A squad (at least right now) are by no means terrible players; as I said, the B squad itself is nothing to sneeze at right now. Unlike the previous situation, you can't say these kids are being ignored, or that their parents are getting fleeced. All 40 kids train together, the same two coaches coach both squads interchangably.

    Very different situations.
     
  9. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Best player on the "B" team is not good enough for the "A" team, but players demoted to the "B" team to the "A" team can be moved back up, even if they cost the "B" team a national championship playoff spot (talk about bad attitudes, I truly think the kid is psychotic, and his Facebook and Twitter page support that).

    The "A" and "B" squad training together is important; his club's "A" coach had a lot of experience and was a great trainer, but not only did he keep his precious "A" team away from the "B" team players during the season, he had NO tryouts with the teams combined. In fact, he moved kids from the "B" team tryouts to the "A" team tryouts, ignoring any current "B" team players.

    As for what's a good coach, the primary thing is the training. I and my son agree that a dirtbag coach, who lies to you and your kids, who is a great trainer is better than a terrible trainer who is a good guy. We also make it a point to pay for outside activities and exposure to pro and college recruitment events as much as possible.

    My son's former club is riding on the reputation of two teams, one is the "A" team in my son's age group. By his reckoning, he's doing things right based on the "A" team's ranking. The "B" and the "C" team exist to pay for the "A" team. The "A" team is built up using friends of the "key players" and no one else. They advertise that they've "been together since U11" yet they've run through tens of players who didn't "fit the click" but went on to academy or better teams after being cut.

    Your kid has to find their best opportunity for training and playing. It gets difficult when choices are few, and they get fewer and fewer as kids get older.
     
  10. jeremys_dad

    jeremys_dad Member

    NYC Football Club
    Apr 29, 2007
    The Big Easy
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Recalling a nun telling me in the fifth grade that I would have an excuse to get out of hell, there is a similar potential in having your son pretend he respects a dirtbag coach, that being a prerequisite for him to become a barrister.
     
  11. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    He is right.

    This comes off as contradiction. If you agree with my larger point about not wasting practice time, then it doesn't make sense (even makes less sense) to call players earlier to practice to run laps when field time/space for practice is scarce. Running laps has nothing to do with soccer therefore it is wasting time.

    Sorry to keep harping on that....again. But I couldn't resist replying.
     
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  12. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Often, with clubs near us, coaches ask players to show up 15 minutes early, and have them run for those 15 minutes. Considering that recent studies have shown that anything other than brief stretching in response to tightness is bad before a workout, I don't see the harm.

    My son is playing up with U18s and against college players, and they definitely don't run at all. It's informal since HS season is still on, but they mess around up until game time, and then play 110%. He actually played really well after eating within a half hour of the game and no real warmup, just some soccer tennis for about an hour before he ate.
     
  13. bradp5221

    bradp5221 New Member

    Aug 17, 2009
    Midwest
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's possible your coach is rotating strikers to keep pressure on the other teams. Sounds like your son is getting enough time on the field to lead the team in goals. If his team is winning games, he could also be using the time to help develop other players.
    Most kids I know that play back or in the mid-field would love the chance to score even one goal in a game. They would certainly give up playing time to play up top. Maybe you could ask your son if he would like to play the full game on the back line and give up the chance of being the team leader in goals. IMO.
     
  14. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Son was getting between 10 minutes and 20 minutes per 80 minute game, and leading the team in goals. Second in goals was a player who got 40 - 60 minutes per game. At U16, should it still be about development if the players that need to be developed don't want to play in college but the club focuses on college recruiting?

    He has switched between defense and forward, but they still sit him even if there are defenders injured. Last game he had with U18's against U23's, he played more than 90 minutes with just a halftime break. I just don't think playing 10 - 20 minutes per game is the right kind of preparation for college let alone pro soccer.

    The broken bones of various starters, and bad attitudes of various starters makes one wonder if it is just 'parentitis' or serious lack of judgement on the coach's part. Luckily, by playing up a year, he won't be playing against his old team. Then again, he will be on a NPL team, and the old team is nowhere near that level.
     
  15. england66

    england66 Member+

    Jan 6, 2004
    dallas, texas
    The vast majority of improvement, at any level, occurs in practice/training (provided practice involves using a soccer ball nearly all of the time)...not in the games themselves. Barcelona didn't learn to play the way they play in games...they did it on the training pitch....
     
  16. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Show me a player on Barcelona that didn't have almost full games growing up and going through the program. I'll agree that it is 15 hours of training to 3 hours of games at most, or even more training, but 10 minutes of game time per week is NOT productive and HURTS players. It is the coach saying that he made a mistake, for whatever reason, and he tries to fix the mistake by punishing the player, instead of just letting him go to another team to play more.

    It's the almighty dollar at work, NO refunds no matter what.
     
  17. england66

    england66 Member+

    Jan 6, 2004
    dallas, texas
    No argument from me....maybe you and your son are just considered 'PAYERS'.....
     
  18. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Not one person on his team was considered anything other than a payer, once the coach was changed. Take away a former Championship pro with years experience coaching and put in a guy who never coached a club team before, either here or in the UK. Take someone away who loves the game and put in someone who has mouths to feed, and gives a better profit line to the club.

    You have to agree that there is a positive to the cut policy of overseas academies. It is rare to cut players for lack of skill in the US unless they actually bring in friends of more favored players. They upped the rosters to 20 on game day instead of 18, for example.

    The head of the club talks a good game, about development, about loyalty to the club, and about how he has supported so many poor kids who needed help. A bad sign when someone's resume for being in charge of a soccer club is having a successful computer business. Kind of like the local head of the BOE having "corporate change" experience, instead of education experience.
     
  19. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Oh, and one other point - if you are truly developing a team, you want to develop teamwork. It is difficult to do that unless in a game or scrimmage, unless you take the lines and have them work together and build camaraderie.
     
  20. england66

    england66 Member+

    Jan 6, 2004
    dallas, texas
    It should be about developing players at that age...not about developing a team...
     
  21. rhrh

    rhrh Member

    Mar 5, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    At U16 and U17? I'll respectfully disagree. It's a far cry from WAAC to putting out a team that can work together and understand the game. Like one of the kids said, "why can't we get along on the field, we get along in practice?". They can't get along on the field because starters are fighting to get 100% playing time and parents talk to the coach and then the club head if not, and subs are fighting to get anything they can. Our mistake perhaps was that as "payers", other parents were manifesting "their rights as customers" to push the coach and club to play their son.

    At what age do you develop teamwork? 20?
     
  22. england66

    england66 Member+

    Jan 6, 2004
    dallas, texas
     
  23. Tbar

    Tbar New Member

    Sep 30, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    My son, super talented, ball control, speed, good powerful shots beautiful passes to free up forwards, scores from the left back position when no one one field scores. We pay our outrageous dues and go to all games. Coach never says a word, no praise, no anything. My advice, is to find a club that fits your son, you are after all paying for the whole experience and if its not working for you then its time to take your money elsewhere.
     

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