The Case For Messi and C. Ronaldo as Best Ever

Ronaldo has been contained in CL semifinals too. He was contained by Man City this past season. He was contained by Barcelona in 2010-2011. He was largely contained by Barcelona in 2007-2008, not contributing to any goals, unless you consider losing the ball before Scholes scored to be a contribution (and by the way, you ignore that Messi actually assisted a goal against Chelsea in 2011-2012). Both players have been contained in CL semifinals. The difference is that Messi has taken over semifinal ties more than Ronaldo has. Ronaldo simply is not better here.

Meanwhile, you attack Messi for being contained by Atletico in two quarterfinals. Of course, Ronaldo was contained by Atletico in two FINALS. Real Madrid just doesn't draw the best defense of this generation in quarterfinals like Barcelona has.

As for NT tournament SFs, the idea that Ronaldo's performance in 2006 was as dominant as Messi's against Paraguay and the United States is just quaint. Those are definitely easier opponents, so you could perhaps argue that a good performance against France is more impressive, but Messi utterly destroyed those teams in a way that Ronaldo simply didn't come close to doing in 2006.

As for domestic cup finals, you forget that Messi also created Barcelona's goals in the 2016 final, in extra time while Barca was a man down. You seem to claim he has only had "one astonishing cup final and 2 merely good ones," which clearly demonstrates that you have no idea that he decided the 2016 final with an astonishing assist with his team a man down. And you casually dismiss his utter demolition in the 2015 final. And that he scored the goal that put them ahead in the 2nd half in 2009 when they were going for the treble. Ronaldo has had nothing even remotely approaching that 2015 finals. Messi is superior in this regard.

The overall point is, both players have had lots of big matches and have succeeded at some and not succeeded at others. I think Messi has been astonishingly good in many more big matches than Ronaldo has (2011 CL final, 2011 CL semifinal, 2015 CL semifinal, 2015 CdR finals, 2015 CA semifinal, 2016 CA semifinal were ALL more dominant than any big match Cristiano Ronaldo has ever had). He has also been contained in some important matches. But so has Ronaldo. If Ronaldo has a really good Euro final tomorrow, I'd put him about equal in big match performances.

 

Ronaldo has 10 goals 2 assists and in 17 cl semi final games

Messi in his whole career has 4 goals 2 assists in 13 cl semi final games
Just how the hell are they close?


Ronaldo's fa cup performance in 2004 and 2005 is clearly of a higher calibre than any copa del rey performance by Messi exc his copa final vs bilbao and I'm not even going to bother debate this

Ronaldo scored the winner in the copa final 2011 vs Barcelona and outshone Messi
Ronaldo also scored in the opening goal vs Atletico Madrid in the 2013 copa del rey final but was red carded in et and his team lost

out of the 5 cup finals Ronaldo has played 04,05,07,11,13 he has only had one legitimately bad game and that was against Chelsea in 2007
Messi was completely contained in 2 copa del rey finals vs real Madrid in 11 and 14
@lessthanjake you are fighting a hopeless battle Ronaldo is clearly above Messi in cup finals(fa cup/copa del rey)
Ronaldo is ahead in cl semi finals,quarter finals,cl ko stage goals,El classico goals,cl away goals,Spanish football away goals he is ahead in nearly everything you could possibly imagine

Ronaldo does not need a great euro final to have a greater final record/performance than Messi he already has . However if he does perform great France then posters like yourself will have no more excuses.

 

0 - @cristiano has never scored in 1353 minutes v the top 5 European Nations with #POR. Obstacle.

 

14 - Most goals & assists at EUROs since 2004:@Cristiano 14
Fàbregas 8
Schweinsteiger 8.
Unrivaled. pic.twitter.com/Pu30Dz5PHY

— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) July 6, 2016

 

Ronaldo has 46 shots
Griezmann has 22 shots.
#Carryingteam

 

7 - Antoine Griezmann (5 goals, 2 assists) is the first player since Platini in 1984 (10 - 9G, 1A) involved in 7+ goals in one Euros. Star.
#Carryingteam

 

Quite a thing
#besteuropeanplayerever

 

Your 10 word troll posts are becoming more pathetic by the post

Messi 8× world cup ko games=0 goals
4× major finals=0 goals
6×games Chelsea=0 goals
0 goals in 6 games against atletico Madrid for the whole 13/14 season
0 goals in two crucial qf games v atletico Madrid in 15/16
M.I.A against inter Milan in 09/10 sf

if I tried I could write a whole pages worth of "extraordinary" records that Messi holds

 

So platini having a superior euro championship goals ratio to Ronaldo apparently proves that he is a better player
Didn't you know..Ronaldo has more cl goals than platini+Zidane+kopa+Henry+griezmann put together

@Ozora
You just need to get over it Ronaldo is the joint euro championship top scorer and if he scores against France he'll go clear of platini in the scoring charts
If you are not happy about Ronaldo being euro champ top scorer because of his inferior goal ratio then perhaps you should take a look at Messi and his nt record

Batigol
56 goals in 78 games:0.72

Messi
55 goals in 113 games :0.49
#greatestfraudsterinhistory

 

Messi played in the World cup final,won the golden ball. Batigol didn''t. But Batigol was more effective NT goal scorer
Also,Platini is superior to Ronaldo. If Ronaldo will wins tonight,then it will be different.

 

Buthurt cartilo
Many still think Ronaldo has carried Portugal whereas the truth is Portugal has carried Ronaldo,gave him everything to score.
Ronaldo has 46 shots, Griezmann-top scorer only has 22 shots.
#carryingteam

 

Get your shit together dude and stop waffling it's embarrassing
Griezmann has 6 goals(1 pen) 1 assist in 6 games
Ronaldo 3 goals( no pen)3 assists in 6 games
http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2016/statistics/

Ronaldo has been directly involved in 6 non pen goals in 6 games and so has Griezmann with the final to decide who is player of the tournament
#stopembarrassingyourself

 

Who the hell is cartilo?


Messi against
Paraguay/USA/Venezuela/Bolivia/Panama

Vs

Messi against Holland/Germany/Belgium/Chile

Which version do you prefer?

 

Again I refer you to my post above that. Messi has at least 6 astonishing performances in big matches that were more dominant than any big-match performance Ronaldo has ever had. He simply has taken over big matches far more than Ronaldo has. Ronaldo may be more consistent in getting on the scoresheet in these matches, but that's largely because Barcelona has Messi drop into midfield against really difficult opponents, since that is the best way for them to keep dominating possession against great teams.

Also, your numbers for Messi in CL semifinals are plainly false. Just off the top of my head, I know he got an assist against Bayern in 2015, an assist against Chelsea in 2012, and an assist against Chelsea in 2009. You really find it difficult to not have incorrect numbers. The fact is this. As I mentioned above, Messi drops deep into midfield against really difficult opponents, which accounts for him being on the scoresheet less. But, overall, Ronaldo has gotten 10 non-pk goals + assists in 17 CL semifinal matches. That's 0.59 per match. Messi has gotten 7 non-pk goals + assists in 13 CL semifinal matches. That's 0.54 per match. That's not a significant difference, especially considering the differences in their roles. In the CL-semifinal arena, it's largely just a question of whether one prefers Ronaldo's more consistently solid production or Messi's couple astonishing performances in which he basically won the tie himself but also a higher percent of times where he did not directly produce goals. That's a trade off, but Ronaldo doesn't definitely come out ahead. I'd personally put Messi ahead because of how deep he plays in those matches, meaning his production simply cannot fairly be measured alongside Ronaldo playing as a striker.

 

It's quite funny how your definition of assist changes depending on which definition helps Ronaldo the most in whatever discussion you are in. You have repeatedly expressed your disdain for the use of wide-rule assists, yet here you are subtly using wide-rule assists in an effort to count Quaresma's goal against Croatia as being assisted by Cristiano Ronaldo. Pathetic. Be consistent. By the definition of assists you have repeatedly stated that you prefer, Ronaldo has 2 assists in these Euros. Thus, by your preferred definition, Griezmann is clearly out-producing Ronaldo.

Furthermore, taking out penalties is a bit of a disingenuous act here. Both players have had one attempted penalty. So this isn't a situation in which counting penalties is unfair on the player who had fewer penalty attempts. The difference is that Griezmann converted his penalty and Cristiano Ronaldo did not. Penalties are still conceptually different from a normal goal, but it's quite important to note that one man converted his penalty attempt and the other did not.

Furthermore, Griezmann very clearly has 2 assists in the tournament. By all definitions he got 2 assists against Iceland.

Thus, the fact is this. By your own preferred definition of assists, Ronaldo has 3 goals and 2 assists in 6 matches in the Euros, while Griezmann has 5 non-pk goals and 2 assists in 6 matches in the Euros. On top of that, Griezmann and Ronaldo both got a penalty attempt, and Griezmann converted his while Ronaldo missed. Griezmann's production is plainly far superior to Ronaldo's. It is not even close, as he scored or assisted 0.50 more goals a match than Ronaldo. That is made more amazing by the fact that Ronaldo has played 600 minutes, while Griezmann has only played 435 minutes. Ronaldo has 0.75 goals + assists per 90 minutes, while Griezmann has 1.66 goals + assists per 90 minutes. The two players aren't even in the same stratosphere.

 

The bottom line is messi a so called goat goal scorer has 4 goals in 13 champions league sf games that is shocking and even more bizarre is that you think his insignificant tally compares to Ronaldo's 10 goals in 17 CL sf games LOL

And there is no such a thing as non pen goals when it comes to major sf and finals . If it was so easy to score penalties in CL semi finals than could you please explain what happened to Messi vs Chelsea in 2012.
Ronaldo ratio in semi finals is 0.70
Messi's g+a ratio in CL sf is:0.54
Now that's what you call a big and significant difference

Ronaldo scored in the 06/07 sf vs ac Milan

08/09 sf vs arsenal

11/12 sf vs bayern Munich

13/14 sf vs bayern Munich

14/15 sf vs juventus

messi scored in the cl semi final vs real Madrid in 10/11 and bayern Munich 14/15 and that's it despite playing in 7 different cl semi finals there is a HUGE difference and only fan boy like yourself wouldn't recognise the difference between the two in big games

 

Wide rules,what the hell are you talking about ?
Ronaldo has 3 goals and 3 assists in 6 games according to the official uefa website
http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2016/statistics/
The problem with you is yet again you are too quick to respond with lengthy/extremely boring tirades but can't be bothered to read a source I have already posted

Ronaldo has been directly involved in 6 non penalty goals in 6 games
Griezmann has been directly involved in 6 non pen goals in 6 games

Ronaldo is directly responsible for 75% of Portugals goals(6 out of 8)
Griezmann has been directly involved in 46% of Frances goals(6 out of 13)
HUGE difference

Ronaldo's 2 goals+1 assist vs Hungary qualified Portugal for the ko stage

he assisted the winning goal in the round of 16 with a deflected shot(like Rivaldo did to r9 vs Germany in 02)
Sanches and nani were the best players against Poland
and Ronaldo's goal+assist vs Wales booked Portugals place in the final

nobody in this euros has been as clutch as Ronaldo he has been involved nearly every step of the way

 

No, it doesn't make sense to count pks. You mention Messi in 2012, but Ronaldo has missed a pk in the CL semifinals too. He missed one in a very close tie against Barcelona in 2007-2008. The difference is simply that Ronaldo proceeded to get two more penalty opportunities in CL semifinals, while Messi has not gotten other pk opportunities at that particular stage. Sorry, but the idea that Ronaldo is a better CL semifinal performer on the basis of having gotten 3 penalty attempts rather than 1 penalty attempt is just silly.

Regardless, even if that weren't silly (which it is), the difference between 0.70 and 0.54 is hardly very significant anyways, especially when you consider that the player with 0.54 played a substantially deeper role on average in these matches and therefore should have a lower production rate.

The latter part of your post is something I've already addressed. The question is just whether you prefer Ronaldo's more consistent production of something in a tie or Messi's couple astonishing performances that carried his team to the finals coupled with a higher percent of semifinal ties where he doesn't directly produce any goals. There's a trade-off there, and it certainly cannot be said that Ronaldo definitely comes out ahead. I for one prefer Messi's performances because he is often playing a deeper role, in which direct production of goals is harder.

 

You literally have no idea what you are talking about. If UEFA says 3 assists, it is because UEFA is using wide rules. Did you ever even consider that before posting this silly post? The fact is that to get Ronaldo 3 assists, you need to count Ronaldo as having assisted the goal against Croatia. You yourself acknowledge that in this post. However, the normal definition of assists does NOT count deflected shots. That only counts in wide rules. You have repeatedly stated that you prefer not using wide rules for assists. Therefore, by your own strongly preferred definition of assists, Ronaldo has just 2 assists in this tournament. There's no way around this fact. You have been exposed.

Meanwhile, you completely ignore the undisputed fact that Griezmann has 2 assists in this tournament. You simply repeat something that I told you was wrong in the very post you are quoting. You are not worth my time, and I will once again not be responding to you for a while (and actually shall be super busy with work starting soon anyways--Euro finals be damned--so perhaps I won't be responding to anyone).

The fact is this though. Using your repeatedly-stated preferred rules--which are normal rules for assists and counting penalties (which actually makes sense here where both players had an equal number of pk attempts)--Ronaldo has 0.75 goals + assists per 90 minutes, while Griezmann has 1.66 goals + assists per 90 minutes. I know it must hurt to learn that Griezmann has utterly embarrassed CR7 by producing goals at 221% the rate of Ronaldo, but you cannot escape the facts. Griezmann has been in another universe from Ronaldo this tournament.

 

Griezmann is in another stratosphere/world/universe to Ronaldo dude please I've heard it all.

And please don't do me any favours I wouldn't want you to feel as if you were obliged to respond back to me.
whether you choose to respond back or not I will continue breaking your balls and debunking your conspiracy theories.
enjoy the final and try not to pull out too many hairs from your head if Ronaldo scores.i don't think a balding middle aged man like yourself can afford to lose anymore hairs.

 

I'm 7 pages behind on this thread now somehow lol, and probably don't want to read everything but just on this point Bada Bing - I guess I could also back up my view that it is Cruyff if anyone who had a comparable set of performances to Maradona at the World Cup (IMO maybe better on average but not quite as good/crucial in the key stages and not with the same individual goals) with a similar list, particularly if giving him the benefit of the doubt in the same way:

vs Uruguay - Instigated the key opening goal with the key involvement by opening up the possibilities for the chance to be created, and passively nullified the Uruguay attack.
vs Sweden - Created probably more clear cut chances that weren't converted than any other player in any other World Cup game.
vs Bulgaria - Quote from below video comments:
"Interesting: A statisticus has found out that this game of Cruijff has been the best game a footballer has ever played on the World Championship. He prepared three goals, had more than 100 ball contacts and 98% of his passing was correct. Besides this he gave his teammates three other direct possibilities to score"

vs Argentina - The clutch performer in a great win with two goals and one assist all requiring a touch of class and excellent accuracy of touch/connection
vs East Germany - A 'Total Football' performance, and though creating less chances than previously still advances the play from the halfway line and makes an opening for team-mates for a good chance
vs Brazil - Probably the best pass/assist in World Cup history to assist Neeskens (note: using creative license with that description and I'm not saying I am putting this view forwards but I don't hold it for Messi's pass either to be honest - I do think Cruyff's was great whether or not it took a very minor deflection) and scores the other goal
vs West Germany - Has his most average performances but still wins the penalty with a solo dribble in the first minute, makes Vogts commit several fouls and sets up a chance that Rep could well have either converted or played a return pass to Cruyff from resulting in a Dutch goal.

I suppose I really believe in my claim about Cruyff being the main challenger to Maradona performance wise over a single WC lol (and I'm not going to say you don't really believe it about Messi) but more on the basis of the full performances over 90 minutes and I guess other descriptive claims as above could be made for other players (it wouldn't be hard at all for Pele I 1958 for one example even though he didn't play all games, but Kempes in 1978 as another random example too probably).

That said, I think probably C.Ronaldo would need a really top performance in the Final (and for that to be weighted heavily of course) to have had a comparable tournament to Messi's 2014 WC. Maybe Messi's Bosnia game and C.Ronaldo's whole tournament are quite similar in a way in terms of end/clutch product trumping general performance?

 

I am a bit lost with the objective of your argument. Perhaps if you can start with your position on whether you believe Messi carried Argentina to the finals I will follow your argument. (Yes/No)


In a game that ends in a 0-0 score line and ends up being decided by penalties it will be irrational to argue that the star player of a team carried the team. You can not use a hypothetical example like "we don't know if it would have still ended in a draw if player X wasn't playing". This is even more so when a player in question didn't produce some match saving tackles or clear the ball from crossing the goal line, or any special defensive work that can be credited to him. The main job of Messi is to either create goals or score goals for his team while objectives of defenders or other defensive players is to ensure that the team doesn't concede goals. So clearly in a game that ends in 0-0 and there is evidence that Messi didn't produce some defending to save Argentina it will be irrational to say he carried the team as that will be taking away credit that should be given to Argentina defenders. No spin doctor can twist this fact. It is the same with trying to say CR7 carried Portugal past Poland, total BS of the highest order. The only people who can try to argue this are in bigsoccer.


Nertherlands is at the same level with Argentina and since it even ended in penalties imo it is irrelevant to make assumptions about it. Two teams completely nullified each other most of the game and I see no reason to believe if another player other than Messi was there it would have made a difference.

I never assumed they would have won the group and I'm not sure where you got that. My point is in a group with Iran, BiH, and Nigeria rational people will expect Argentina to get out of that group. History about upsets has got nothing to do with that statement.

What do you mean about Argentina failing to finish in the top 2 of their half since 1990?

 

It's impressive with one game to go for sure. Although Van Basten was involved in 7 in 1988. Griezmann is playing an extra game of course as compared to most Euros and two more than 1988 itself but does still have the Final to play in which he could even score a hat-trick and tie Platini for goals (but over 2 more games even if he was benched at the start of one of them - just like Van Basten but for different reasons).

A little bit like Iniesta, Griezmann maybe seems less spectacular and multi-talented than some players heralded as greats but his intelligence and accuracy in the final third still make him a top player (not applying the exact same logic to Iniesta but obviously he had/has his own stand-out attributes).

In general I do think the blanket organised defence that most teams have (including a 'set' midfield in defensive areas I suppose especially centrally, and the generalised tactics of closing space etc that I guess are drilled into teams) combined with a lack of individualists and dribblers hasn't helped entertainment in the Euros. Maybe no coincidence that Hazard thrives in the Hungary game for example, but whether he or team-mate Carassco for example (based on CL Final display as sub) might have done more individually in other games I dunno. I think it's too simple to say no great players from the past would have made headway dribbling vs these defences. But then that doesn't mean they wouldn't have found it easier in some of their past games either I suppose.

 

Presence of any star player has an impact on how the other team approach the game, it can be Zlatan/CR7/Messi/Aguero/Roben, etc. Wrong conclusion is to give credit to those players when they got nullified by using things such as "their presence was the reason for the result. What seems to be the theme here is to credit a star player with anything positive that happened during the game even if they had little to do with it.