The Case For Messi and C. Ronaldo as Best Ever

Cronaldo with 1353 minutes without a tap-in against Top 5 European nations. Remarkable statistic.

 

I think you're doing here what you accuse Messi fans of doing with Ronaldo though. I think you are defining "impressive" goalscoring as doing the things that Ronaldo does and Muller doesn't. Sure, Muller wasn't scoring goals after making an end-to-end run, nor was he scoring tons of outside-the-box goals. And he wasn't getting tons of counter attacking goals. I'm sure one could dig up instances of Muller doing all of those things, but those aren't his typical goals because he didn't have the athleticism that Ronaldo has. Similarly, though, there are types of goals that you see far more often from Muller than from Ronaldo. For instance, Muller was the master of the type of goal where you get the ball near the edge of the box with your back to the goal, quickly turn and then rifle the ball into the corner. I've seen Ronaldo score that type of goal, I think, but he's not even remotely as proficient at it as Gerd Muller. Similarly, if I need a player to place the ball past the defenders in a crowded box, I'm taking Gerd Muller all day over Cristiano Ronaldo. Or if a player gets fed the ball in an awkward position such that he has to be off-balance while he's shooting, I'm also taking Gerd Muller over Ronaldo without a second thought. While Ronaldo has great positioning, I'm certainly taking Muller as the guy who will more consistently create space for himself to receive the ball in the box and score (Muller is simply the GOAT at that). If a ball takes an awkward deflection or bounce in the box, is bobbled by the GK, or a defender is lazy in possession in the box, I certainly would prefer to have Muller in the game to take advantage. I could go on.

Ultimately, we are talking about two players with different skill sets. There are situations in which each one would be superior to the other in scoring. Ultimately, though, I can't escape the conclusion that the guy who scored as much or more for a substantially less potent attack is in fact the superior scorer. That just seems like good evidence that his advantages outweigh Ronaldo's advantages.

And I suspect your response will be to say that you have seen Ronaldo score the types of Muller goals I'm talking about. That is, you've seen him score off deflections, score off-balance shots, score in crowded box, etc. I could equally say that Muller does score some outside-the-box goals, for instance. It's all a matter of degree. But let's say it wasn't. Let's say that Muller never scored some types of goals that Ronaldo has scored, and Ronaldo has at least scored the types of goals Muller does. Does that make him a better scorer? I don't think so. It might make him a more varied scorer, but I don't see how it makes him a better one when he doesn't actually score more. After all, surely the better scorer is the one who scores the most (keeping team context in mind)? For instance, let's say that Muller scores off of 10% of all deflections in the box, while Ronaldo scores on 5%. There are 60 deflections in the box. Thus, Muller gets 6 goals from this, while Ronaldo gets 3. Meanwhile, Ronaldo scores 2 outside-the-box goals, while Muller does not score any. Would you honestly say that in that scenario Ronaldo is the better scorer? I wouldn't.

EDIT: As a side issue, that video doesn't show enough of the build up of goals to demonstrate how Muller was fantastic at combination play. There's a reason that he led the Bundesliga on multiple occasions in assists (hint: it was combination play, not tons of defense-splitting through balls)

 

A great performance in a euro championship final will definitely increase his all time standing(how can you say it wouldn't)

IF he is either great/clutch or both vs France he will have a strong case for being the greatest European player in history
His legacy at 31 years old will read

Best player on 3 different champions league winning teams

a NT trophy with a relatively average team

Many dozens of all time goalscoring records
Etc

What I find extremely bizarre considering how stringent your all time lists usually are is that you have placed R9 over cr7, based on what?
Cr7 had surpassed his namesake after his 2011/12 season
at 27 years old he was already a 4 time ballon dor winner under pre 1995 rules

he had 2 ×50+ goals seasons and one 40+ goal season in 2 different leagues

Peak for peak cr7 was slightly behind R9 but being marginally behind does not make up for the gap in consistency between R9 and cr7
And before I forget to mention, r9's international career was top tier legendary while Cristiano's clearly isn't(although that could change today) but then again cr7 did not play with ballon dor winners like romario,Rivaldo,r10,kaka a legendary left back and right back( cafu and r.carlos)even peak robinho/adriano is better than any NT teammate Ronaldo has played with since 2008.

Every man and his dog knows what c.Ronaldo is capable of playing on a stacked team can you just imagine what he could do on a team like Brazil 97-02, it would've been ridiculous

 

Nevermind that,

Goals against Top 5 SA/Euro nations (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Colombia, Chile, Germany, Spain, France, Italy, England)

15 Messi
1 Cronaldo

 

@EdgarAllanPoet







Those are just some quick examples of Muller's clever combination play and passing in the box. Notice in that last video that--prior to scoring the first goal--Muller was the one who one-touch passed to Netzer for the volleyed shot. And then the third goal was a result of combination play. Muller actually was always looking for one-twos in the box.

 

Remarkable stats/records from Messi
100+ cl games=0 freekick goals(with most probably 100-150 attempts)

6× games vs Chelsea=0 goals

Invisible in 2 cl qf exits vs atletico Madrid

0 goals in 8 world cup KO stage games

Invisible in 4 major international finals

Messi in his peak disappearing form would give houdini a good run for his money

 

I say it won't change his all-time standing much because I am comparing to his all-time standing for me prior to the start of this tournament. Even with a great performance in the finals, I don't think his performance in this tournament overall would've been anything above average for him. And, essentially by definition, an average or below-average performance from CR7 in a tournament should not really raise his stature much beyond where I already had him. I look at individual performances much more than trophies, and I just don't see how an individual performance that is not better than his norm should somehow make me think more highly of him than I did before. In fact, if he's not great in these finals, this tournament would, if anything, lower my perception of him, because I think he has been disappointing by his own standards. In any case, the one area where he can make me think more highly of him in is his performance in big matches. Not that he has been bad in big matches, but obviously a great performance in a Euros final would help my perception of him in that particular category. And that's why I said it could make him leapfrog a place or two on my list. But one particular showing in one big match is not something that dramatically changes my perception of a player, since there's so much randomness to how a single performance goes.

 

I don't think you realise what Ronaldo is on the cusp of achieving if he wins ,his legacy can never be questioned by anybody
Every question he was asked in his career he has answered
I just find it astonishing how the criteria for greatness changes every time Messi comes short.
Messi repeatedly failed despite being the focal point on a stacked NT
Ronaldo winning a euro championship would be the absolute pinnacle of his career better than anything he has achieved and by a distance

how can the greatest achievement of a player you consider to be top 10 not increase his all time standing?. .It doesn't even make the slightest bit of sense
(This is all hypothetical of course France could end up mowing down Portugal and this whole conversation would've been a clear waste of time)

 

The flaw in your logic is that it would not even be remotely his greatest achievement. If he had actually put in an amazing performance in the tournament, dragging his team to the title through individual brilliance, then yes it would be his greatest achievement. But the mere fact that Portugal isn't that good and could win the Euros with Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't somehow mean that such a victory would inherently be some amazing individual achievement for Cristiano Ronaldo. The fact is that his individual performance in this tournament overall has not been good. Even with a great performance in the finals, would this tournament have really shown me that Cristiano Ronaldo is a better player than I previously thought he was? I would say no. The only thing it might have showed me is that Ronaldo is a better big-game performer than I thought he was. And that's what would justify raising him up a spot or two. But he has undeniably been below his normal level in this tournament. How should a below-norm performance in which his team nevertheless managed to do well somehow convince me that he is better than I thought he was? You're wanting to use team results as a proxy for individual quality when we don't need to do that because we have all watched the matches and we know how well individual players played.

 

I'm not going to go around in circles with this but I think we can both agree that if Ronaldo shines in the final it will settle the debate between him and Messi as to whom is the superior big game performer
Ronaldo has already settled it in the champions league vs big teams as I have previously shown you

Since the 09/10 season CR7 has scored the most el classico goals
the most away goals In Spanish football
the most ko goals in the cl
the most away goals in the cl
the most cl goals in sf and qf
Messi has had 4 chances to shine in major international finals and he has failed 4 times

Ronaldo failed in 2004 vs Greece but has a chance for redemption vs France and if he does so the whole debate about who is the greater performer in big games between himself and Messi will be settled once and for all

 

Goals against Top 5 SA/Euro nations (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Colombia, Chile, Germany, Spain, France, Italy, England)

15 Messi
11 Suarez
9 Neymar
2 Benzema
1 Bale
1 Cronaldo

 

No.

- Messi has been significantly superior to Ronaldo in CL finals. That is undeniable.
-When you talk of CL semifinals, Ronaldo has probably been more consistently productive, but Messi took over against RM in 2010-2011 and took over against Bayern in 2014-2015. Ronaldo hasn't taken over like that (I know you want to argue for Arsenal 2008-2009, but I don't buy it because Man U was already winning by 2 goals when he first scored, and even if I did buy it, that's just one instance anyways).
- CR7 may have scored more clasico goals since 2009-2010, but that doesn't mean he has actually been a better clasico performer; Messi often drops deep to be a playmaker against Real Madrid (in order to stabilize the midfield so that they can keep possession, which a three-man midfield would find hard to do against RM). He has tons of assists against RM and has generally been more important than Ronaldo IMO.
- Messi hasn't been great in major NT finals, it is true (though I actually thought he was good in this past CA finals, minus the pk of course), but CR7 wasn't good in 2004.
- And Messi has put in better performances in SFs of major NT tournaments. He absolutely dominated the US in 2016. He absolutely dominated Paraguay in 2015. He was quite good against Mexico in 2007. And he was good but ultimately not super effective against the Netherlands, in a super defensive match in 2014. Ronaldo was good against Wales what with the goal, but he did not utterly dominate. He was essentially useless against Spain in 2012. He was not particularly good in 2006 against France. And he was good against the Netherlands in 2004. Overall, Messi was better in these matches (though he did have easier opponents on average, admittedly).
- Meanwhile, Messi has been amazing in multiple Copa Del Rey finals, which are undeniably big matches. Ronaldo has not been bad in domestic cup finals overall, but he has not been nearly as good as Messi.

Both players have had some disappointing performances in big matches. I would say that, overall, Messi has been better in big matches, as is evident from the above descriptions. A great performance in this euros final from Ronaldo and I'd probably no longer really say that. But it certainly wouldn't "settle the debate" on this issue in Ronaldo's favor. It would just essentially equalize it IMO.

 

15 goals against top 5 international teams for Messi ..Bravo

How many in competitive matches?

 

Do the best musicians sell the most albums?

I acknowledged in my original response that the edits make it too hard to gauge certain aspects to Meuller's scoring. My logic and ideologies aren't going to change though simply because the comparison target has. Ronaldo's versatility is what I value most in this game across all players. The headers in that video are nothing compared to Ronaldo's headers. He is short but even still, I don't see tremendous leaping ability. I don't see long range headers either as it's more a case of him just being good at directing the ball with his head. Ronaldo is that too while sitting on the shoulders of the defenders in front of him or after muscling and fighting his way to the space to shoot one. There is no similarities in skill to Meuller running onto a ball and shooting with his head compared to Ronaldo soaring through the air and finishing from 12-15 yards with his. You also have to watch Ronaldo's movements on his headers, there is anticipation followed by subtle cuts, drop backs or sprints for them to come to fruition. Not many of Meullers headers were on set pieces and the ones that were you see he is almost standing in the goal. How many of Meuller's goals were from seemingly impossible angles?

On Ronaldo's "tap-tins" many of those aren't given credit for the fact that he has usually just sprinted 60 yards by multiple defenders and teammates to become the passing option on plays he wouldn't be in if not for his drive. Or he was playing combination passes from deep and following the play through the box to get an easy goal. I would think that if Meuller was routinely originating goals from 50-60 yards out the video would show the whole play, coming from a source who took the time to put together over 100 of his goals that they label as his "best." Ronaldo is a master at creating space for himself too, usually utilizing footwork and or first step to do it whether executing a shot or a cross from the wing and Ronaldo's are/were reality-suspending fast. I think you are focusing too much on present day Ronado and forgetting who '06-'13 Cristiano was and the magic he was capable of. Benzema gets a lot of assists too and I'd imagine Meuller's assists were of a similar nature. When you are in the box that often there is going to be many opportunities to lay it off.

Speaking about to what degree someone is capable of performing a skill to. There isn't another player who has the weak foot goals Ronaldo has. This is again, a category where Ronaldo is close to if not over 100 goals of this nature and many of them would be insane goals for naturally left footed players. Meuller doesn't have 60 free-kicks or close to it in his career as well. Ronaldo scores from solo runs and dribbles too, back, heels, he bicycles attempts shots and passes. End-to-end runs, combos etc. This versatility is the foundation of the principles forming my belief that Ronaldo is the greatest scorer ever. What players does he not have these same advantages on? Nobody can score consistently in so many ways. I don't see Meuller using complicated foot skills to beat defenders either. He uses good control but not trickery or flashy moves. Different era however. He doesn't look to be anywhere near as creative as Ronaldo.

The goals you describe where Meuller rapidly turns and shoots isn't Ronaldo's forte being a traditional winger most of his career and that is a striker's goal but he has more than enough first time finishes to make up for it. I didn't see Meuller sprinting to a ball and redirecting it with a first time shot rifled past the keeper. Rebounded goals aren't any recognizable skill I value and in fact I have argued with celito about Messi having so many rebounded/deflected/loose ball and bad bounce type goals that essentially fall into his lap. Those are right place, right time goals that didn't require any direct influence from the scorer in my opinion.

Lastly, While Meuller may have scored more this is like the different eras in the NBA, look at the defensive quality on those plays. It's embarrassing and average defenders today are all bigger, stronger, faster, more tactical and knowledgeable as a whole. Ronaldo scorers from solo runs and dribbles too. back, heels. he bicycles attempts shots and passes. Meuler never had a run like Ronaldo has had scoring 50+ goals for 6 consecutive years and Meuller didn't score in Europe like Ronaldo.

The goals to games ratio for Ronaldo is skewed because he didn't score goals and it wasn't exactly his role in his first 4-5 seasons where he played deep and didn't even approach the box. He was back to collect from the back-line and created the attacks dribbling past midfield usually passing before the final third. So there are seasons with many games and little goals that kills his ratio. His GPG from when Ferguson shifted him further forward and made him the focal point of attack is in-line with the greatest scores ever so that context needs to be acknowledged.

 

Perhaps pele made that statement about george best because he knew people would not take that statement seriously. that guy is perhaps the most conceited player out there, hence never giving credit to messi or maradona

 

You have made quite a few mistakes in your post that I have to address firstly I'll begin by agreeing with your sentiment that Messi had been better overall in cl finals
Ronaldo was very good in 07/08 vs Chelsea(a team Messi could not crack in 6 ko stage attempts)
and he was good vs Barcelona in 08/09

Messi was marginally better than Ronaldo in the 08/09 cl final
He was legendary in the 10/11 final and he was very good in the 14/15 final vs juventus comparable to Ronaldo vs Chelsea in 2008
Messi has never performed average let alone bad in a cl final while ronaldo's disappearing act vs atletico Madrid in the San siro was shocking for a player of his ilk

now I think even you can accept that big games are not only cl finals
there are cl semifinals
euro/copa semi finals/finals
amongst others to consider

ronaldo in cl semi finals completely wipes the floor with Messi in semi finals
Messi may of had 2 sf's that he took over vs madrid and bayern compared to ronaldo's 1 vs arsenal but you forget that Messi was contained in 3 cl semi finals
vs United in 07/08
vs Chelsea in 11/12
Vs inter Milan in 09/10

not to mention he choked in 2 qf's vs atletico in the past 3 seasons

Ronaldo definitely wins this category


moving onto euro/copa semi finals yes it is true Messi was good vs Paraguay,USA and Co but don't you recognise the common denominator between these teams,
they are were all average teams that Argentina had a great chance of beating with or without Messi

the way you dismissed Ronaldo's performance vs France made me laugh and is very typical of you
the guardian rated Ronaldo as motm vs France in 2006
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/jul/06/worldcup2006.sport3
he was a constant threat dazzling the french defence with skill and dribbling but it just wasn't his night
C.Ronaldo vs France can stand toe to toe with any sf Messi has had in the copa America

And lastly Messi has scored 3 goals in copa del rey finals same goes for Ronaldo(1 in the 2004 fa cup final and 2 in 2 copa del rey finals)
Messi completely failed against real madrid in 10/11 and 13/14(in the copa)
Ronaldo failed against Chelsea in 2007 final and lost against atletico madrid in 2013 but scored a great header and had a good game till he was red carded
on paper their cup finals look close but when you look deeper you see that c.Ronaldo has a clear advantage

cr7's fa cup performance in 2004 at 19 years old was one of the best I have ever seen from a young player he scored and was an absolute menace with his dribbling . the amount of players he left sitting on their backside was ridiculous


Ronaldo was also pretty grand in the 2005 Cup final vs arsenal where he destroyed Lauren and viera,was a consistent dribbling threat,many chances created but rvn had a shocker and couldn't put them away . The game went to penalties Ronaldo scored but his team ended up losing which is always unfortunate but that's just life


Ronaldo also had a very good game vs Barcelona in 10/11 but outside of his winning goal I would put his performance definitely behind his cup finals in 2004 and 2005
I really cannot remember any copa del rey finals in which Messi took over excluding of course his legendary game vs bilbao in 2015 which i would agree is clearly superior to any cup final of Ronaldo's.
but one astonishing cup final and 2 merely good ones is not enough to bridge the gap himself and Ronaldo

 

Having worked in the most dangerous streets of America near real gangsters in their territories is relevant experience to cite when dealing with a pretend internet gangster who spoke perfect English until he got made then switched it up to street-lingo and posturing to engage in a lame attempt to intimidate me, like I have no idea what being in real life imminent danger is or how real gangsters who are hopeless and heartless conduct themselves. It's not a selective personality.

You "wipe the floor" with shit...Making the most idiotic and trite statements in the history of this forum then not standing by your statements by weaseling out and claiming you're misunderstood is desperate times. "football is not about scoring goals, it's also about creating and defending them" you thought I was saying is "obvious"...You can't even comprehend why these thoughts are so egregious. Now you are just imitating me by pretending I'm obsessed with you so you can't even be original either. You claim you're against the grain and so enlightened while your positions are usually the most universally believed falsehoods in football. What unique insights.

You are a conservative pussy who is a reactionist and thinks every statement concerning one's personal character is an attack on their race. You support Jawerido who makes blatantly homophobic and racist remarks yet you are repping his posts. This again, shows your painfully unintended irony that is above your head and you have no self awareness or how it portrays you. You've shown you have no concern for the issues you claim to champion themselves but the person who says them. Poser

You absolutely said it and I pointed out that they are both older looking, balding white males. You can't run from your record. You have said all these things. you just don't have the courage to admit them. You are a walking contradiction. A family of genius yet you are below average in every way.

It wouldn't matter if it is the basis of your argument or supporting evidence. I asked you time and again what are the names of the voters who take "facial symmetry and features" into the equation to say who the more handsome player is before ranking them.

I pointed out that James and Meuller blew up the World Cup up while playing nothing of the sort for the entire season for their clubs. It's more difficult to go from your club team to a tournament with players that only play together a handful of times before the tournament and where teams play tighter and more defensive while the chemistry and quality on the filed is levels below top clubs. These same great players are never good for an entire Champion's League either. They get hot in a period of the group and hot for a period of knockouts like Kaka in '08. According to you players should be ripping up the entirety of the Champion's League since it's so easy to stay good over an entire season.

I also obliterated this argument by the fact that the season can be broken down into 10 World Cups. Players like Messi, Ronaldo, Ibra etc all catch fire for a few weeks and then get cold. I gave you examples that if Ronaldo's 2013/14 season were gauged as 1 month tournaments/periods in December he would have had a couple goals and no assists and the very next month Ronaldo got hot and scored 10 goals and 4 assists over his games that brief period. I gave you more examples of this too. No player is hot or performing at peak levels for an entire year. They merely string together great performances over short spans and then regress for a period.

This is why your statement that "it's easier to stay in form for a year than for a month" is asinine, inane logic and borderline retardation. In every situation there are peaks and valleys over the course of a season but they aren't broken down into specific 4 week periods where they are weighted by a factor of ten over the other 4 week periods in their careers. You think Griezman is going to play at this level for 2 years straight? LMAO

Did Platini ever score 9 goals in a month for 10 months? lmao

Wipe the floor eh?

Oh the irony, again and again. Keep on ignoring me like how you ran away from the PM's 'cuz you were getting owned and no rep crew to pat you on your back to make you feel vindicated for such tripe.

Everybody that I have seen debate you from Dazer to Saywhatiwant to Carlito to ADG to me have all ended up invariably at the conclusion of "you're putting words in my mouth"...My line would always be "You are redefining my argument for me now" ..It's what you do and a major character flaw probably happening because you have to defend from such fantastically dubious positions so attributing bullshit to other people is getting yourself out of the corners you painted yourself in.

 

he speaks of himself in third person. He never says "I" or "Me". Instead he will address himself as "Pele" in third person.

Example, when speaking to the press in the public he will do the following;

Instead of saying "I passed the ball to Jairzinho" he will say "Pele passed the ball to jarzinho"

Instead of saying "I was the best" he will say "Pele was the best".

Obviously he puts himself in the position of a God when addressing himself. How self-absorbed can someone be?

 

Ronaldo took over the game vs Schalke scoring two massive headers, not in semi-finals but to advance his team. They were up against it and on the verge of elimination. This is a big game in that situation. Then he created the dribble and pass to Chicharito to get past Atletico and scored the away goal against Juventus and what would have been the winning goal in Madrid before Morata scored. He gave Bale a ball on a platter for an open header after a 1-2 with Marcelo that would've put Madrid through to the final.

I think too many times "big games" are limited to historically top teams and semi-finals and finals. How is that Hungary game not a big game performance? A game Madrid is struggling against Bestis on a day Barca dropped points and a win would give Madrid a lead in the league could be a "big game." I think there's too many limitations on what constitutes a big game and when considering full context there are more than 3 or 4 a year. It's also an error to constantly claim Sevilla and Valenicia are big games automatically. They are usually on the list comparing what they did against those teams. A hat-trick against Sevilla winning 5-0 isn't a "big game" compared to being scoreless against Getafe until an 89th minute winner. Circumstances play more of a role in determining what was a "big game performance" than just playing a big name team in my opinion.

 

Maybe you disagree, but I don't consider scoring to be an art form, so it's quite different. Also, they're not selling goals. In any case, this response may reveal how you think about this differently than I do. Again, I look for effectiveness. When we are talking about who is the best scorer, I am looking for the player who would score the most goals, not the player who would score the most attractive goals.

Muller scored a goal in the European Cup final from a seemingly impossible angle (this was against Atletico Madrid. He also scored an unbelievable lobbed goal in the same match). Not a header--which you may be talking about since the rest of this paragraph is about headers--but still worth mentioning.

In any case, I think that Muller was better at directing the ball with his head (he was amazing at putting the ball in the far corner where the GK had no chance, lobbing the GK with a header, placing it well generally, etc), while Ronaldo was far more athletic with it. If I was forced to choose, I'd probably say Ronaldo is the better header, but my point is that Muller is in the conversation. I think you get to the conclusion that Muller is "nothing compared to Ronaldo" in heading by glossing over the benefit of just being super accurate. An accurate header who isn't super athletic will get a ton of headed goals that are individually not super impressive. But, taken as a whole, it IS impressive because other players would have missed far more of them.

In most discussions we have, I think you underestimate the value of simply being extremely consistent at relatively unspectacular things. That can easily make someone just as effective or more effective than occasionally pulling off the spectacular.

I completely agree that Ronaldo should get more credit for having sprinted by defenders on many of his "tap-ins." I've said that on a lot of occasions here. Muller didn't have that kind of speed. Muller also didn't originate goals from far away as often as Ronaldo (though you should watch the last video I posted in one of the above posts. It shows him doing exactly that in finals of Euro 1972).

Anyways, when I say Muller was better at positioning himself to have space to get a good chance, I primarily was referring to off-the-ball movement. Ronaldo has great off-the-ball movement, but Muller really was GOAT level at this. His off-the-ball movement is brilliant. It's really hard to stop someone who can accelerate super fast off-the-ball dragging defenders with him, then stop on a dime and cut back to position himself for a pass and immediately then rifle the ball into the corner first-time even if the pass isn't very good and he has to take it off-balance and even if it is in a crowded box. That's a typical Muller goal. It's extremely hard to stop. And Ronaldo is just nowhere near as good at that sort of thing as Muller. No, he's not incapable at it, but he's no Muller, just as Muller is capable of long-distance shots but is no Ronaldo.

In the end, both of these players have types of goals and systems they are better than the other one at. Ronaldo is certainly better at counter attacking goals since he is much faster. But you yourself have mentioned that Ronaldo is not all that great at typical #9 play, such as playing with your back to the goal. Muller is substantially better than Ronaldo at that stuff. They scored goals in different ways because these two men played to their strengths. The only thing we can do is to look at how effective they were at scoring goals with their chosen style. I argue that Muller is the one who is more effective as a scorer.

Again, you are just listing the things that Ronaldo does better than Muller and ignoring the things Muller does better than Ronaldo. They have different styles of scoring. In the end, Muller's actual scoring record is more impressive, so I think he was more effective using his style of scoring than Ronaldo has been using his own style of scoring. You're free to find Ronaldo's scoring more entertaining and interesting, but for me, the guy who is more effective at scoring goals is the better scorer.

As a sidenote, I don't think the free-kick issue goes in your favor. Muller barely shot free kicks, while Ronaldo takes most every one for club and country. Direct free kicks are another place where only one player on the team can take them. Ronaldo is undoubtedly better at free kicks than Muller. But if his scoring isn't better despite taking his teams' free kicks, then I'd argue he's less effective as a scorer. After all, what would you rather have: (1) a player who scores 1.0 goals per match while taking all your teams' free kicks, or (2) a player who scores 1.0 goals per match while taking none of your teams' free kicks? To me, the answer is fairly clearly that Option 2 is superior. After all, in Option 2, you still have someone else taking the free kicks. If that teammate even scores 1 free kick, then your team is better off than it would be in Option 1.

You spend paragraphs describing the things that Ronaldo does better than Muller and saying how important they are. And then when confronted with something that Muller does substantially better than Ronaldo, you merely explain it away by saying that it "isn't Ronaldo's forte." That's quite a double standard. The fact is that Muller is miles better than Ronaldo at multiple very important aspects of scoring--including playing with your back to the goal. You can't just ignore that, talk about the areas where Ronaldo is better, and then declare Ronaldo to be a superior scorer.

Meanwhile, you go on to discount rebounded goals as not being "any recognizable skill you value." Again, this is ridiculous. The anticipation and acceleration required to get to those balls more than other strikers do (which Muller certainly did) is absolutely a skill. This is a skill that directly results in your team getting more goals. The idea that you put no value on something that directly results in goals that would not otherwise be scored is just bizarre to me. As with the above, you just don't want to put any value on something that Muller is superior to Ronaldo in.

They may be "right place, right time goals," but guess what? Being at the right place at the right time more than other players is absolutely unequivocally an important skill in football.

Saying defenders are worse back then is just a "Everyone in this era is better" argument. If Ronaldo played back then, he would play against defenders who aren't as fast or strong. But guess what? He also would be less fast and less strong. This is just a meaningless point. As a sidenote, you talk about how high Ronaldo jumps, but this is an example of something where he is better because of modern training regimes. Muller would jump substantially higher if he played now. Not that he would jump as high as Ronaldo, but if they played in the same era, the difference wouldn't be as big as it looks.

Meanwhile, you say Muller never had a run scoring 50 goals in 6 consecutive years. Well guess what? Teams didn't play as many matches back then. The Bundesliga is a 34-match league, the European Cup didn't have group stages, etc. Muller had more seasons than Ronaldo in which he averaged over 1 goal a match. Furthermore, I have demonstrated on the Gerd Muller thread that Muller's best 7-year span had a higher non-pk goals per match rate than Ronaldo's 7-year span at Real Madrid (and they were exactly equal in goals with pks, but it's an unfair measure since Muller didn't always take the pks, but had a conversion rate virtually exactly equal to Ronaldo's). And that is despite the fact that Muller's scoring came while playing for a team that scored substantially less per match than Real Madrid does. In other words, prime Muller scored at a more impressive rate than Ronaldo in his scoring prime. The 50-goals-a-match thing is only unique to Ronaldo because of how many matches teams play now.

Meanwhile, it's simply completely false to say that Muller didn't score in Europe like Ronaldo. He scored 35 goals in 35 European Cup matches. And only one of those goals was a penalty. Again I have demonstrated in the Gerd Muller thread that Muller's non-pk goals per match in European Cup matches is superior to Ronaldo's non-pk goals per match in the CL during his Real Madrid years only. (And again, the numbers are essentially exactly the same if you did count penalties, but again it's not a fair comparison, since Muller didn't take all the penalties despite being as good at them as Ronaldo).

That is why I have only compared Muller's numbers to Ronaldo's numbers AFTER Ronaldo entered his scoring prime. Whether you compare him to Ronaldo from 2007-2008 onwards or just in Ronaldo's Real Madrid years, Muller's numbers come out looking better over equal timespans. Muller was simply a more effective scorer.

 

This may very well be true, but then these players both have plenty of examples in which they were crucial to their team advancing in an earlier round against relatively inferior opposition. For instance, how about when Barcelona lost the first leg 2-0 to AC Milan in 2012-2013. Messi scores two amazing first-half goals in the second leg to quickly get Barcelona back into it. Or what about when Barcelona lost the first leg to Arsenal 2-1 in 2010-2011? Messi scored a goal at the dying moments of the first half of the second leg to put Barcelona in the drivers' seat, and then converted a penalty to win the tie. Or what about the Arsenal tie in 2009-2010? Barcelona went behind in the second leg, and Messi immediately scored a fantastic goal to get control back, followed by two more fantastic goals before half-time to ensure the tie was won. Or what about when an injured Messi came on in the 2nd half of the second leg against PSG in a situation in which Barcelona was going out? Messi makes a dribbling run that is the catalyst for Barcelona's tie-winning goal (and generally, his presence completely changed the tone of the match; I am virtually certain Barcelona would've gone out without him). And if you want to talk about the Hungary game as a big game, when we'd have to include things like Messi's stoppage-time winner against Iran.

I could go on. In reality, if we just define "big games" as those that were close and in which the player came up big, then Messi and Ronaldo both have plenty of instances of this. The reason people limit "big games" to matches against top teams in later stages is that those are the most difficult and pressure-filled situations. I see an argument for including some other stuff, but I certainly don't think this gives Ronaldo some kind of advantage if we did count such things.

 

The point is that Argentina would have not even won the group if not for Messi.

- They were terrible against Bosnia. Like, properly outplayed. If it was not for Messi's genius solo goal, they would have tied at best. Bosnia's first own goal was also after a Messi free kick delivery.
- Then there's the match against Iran, where Argentina were unable to break down Iran for 90 minutes before yet another genius solo moment by Messi. Without Messi this game is a draw.
- Then finally against Nigeria, Messi scored 2 out of the 3 goals in a match which Argentina won 3-2. Again, without Messi this would have been either a loss or draw.

Withot Messi, Argentina would not have won the group. They would have finished either 2nd or 3rd.

If they finished 2nd, they would have to face France in the round of 16 and then Germany in the quarter final = Argentina doesn't go through to the final either.

History is absolutely meaningless. How many people expected Costa Rica to win a group that contains Italy, Uruguay and England?

Without Messi, Argentina doesn't win the group and doesn't reach the final.

 

You remind of the guy who keeps on repeating the same "joke" repeatedly expecting a different response every single time
I told you it wasn't funny the first time what makes you think I'm going to laugh on the 50th occasion ?


Your idol is the grandmaster of disappearing in major nt finals
Would you prefer a different haircut for every group stage match or the alternative
4× major finals=zilch/nada/nothing

 

This myth is getting old. This never happened (Argentina playing without Messi in WC14) therefore it is impossible to prove this.
Maybe Argentina would have played differently without messi and the player's contribution would have been more equally spread instead of with Messi where most balls go to him . Maybe they would have played better as a unit, who knows. Maybe Higuain did not choke. They have very good players besides messi who are excellent at club level - is not like they are gonna forget how to play all of a sudden. Maybe their mindset would have changed completely and they would have played better.. All of these things are all possible and not too far from reality as shown in the opening game for Argentina in this last copa where they were able to beat Chile 2-1 without Messi.