The Case For Messi and C. Ronaldo as Best Ever

Nothing new. Messi and Ronaldo have set goal scoring records, every man and his dog already knows that. He scrutinises the fallacies of other arguments but not his own. In fact he admitted the numbers don't prove anything in football, then proceeded to dismiss that for no reason. He makes a lot of claims that he offers no explanation for, let alone evidence. Waste of time really, empty rhetoric more than anything else, with a graph thrown in (its one saving grace)

 

Well, the author does have a point with regard to Messi's and Ronaldo's sheer dominance. You can pretty much point to any Barca match at random and Messi is just at an entirely different level than anyone else on the field. Even though his teammates are great - many are world class - they look like pub-league players next to Messi.

When was the last time that happened? I mean... for such a sustained period of time? By the time they hang up their boots, it will likely be a full decade where they are not only the best players in the world, but there's a significant gap between them and the rest.

 

They will be in TOP10-35 all time
Best ever? no case no chance

 

Anyway, Congrats to CR7 to have got the label as "best EPL player" by ESPNFC poll

Cristiano Ronaldo tops Thierry Henry in Premier League greatest-ever poll

In an online poll of 1,000 members of the public, the choice offered was between Ronaldo, Henry, Giggs and fellow luminaries Eric Cantona, Gianfranco Zola, Dennis Bergkamp, Steven Gerrard, Alan Shearer, Roy Keane and Patrick Vieira.
...

Best players of EPL since 1992
1- CR7 (24%)
2- Henry (18%)
3- Giggs (13%)
4- Shearer (12%)
5- Cantona (12%)

http://www.espnfc.us/barclays-premi...thierry-henryryan-giggs-in-greatest-ever-poll

 

While that is obviously an exaggeration (I know I have seen games that left me in awe with Iniesta more than with Messi, to name one guy), I do feel that it is rather rare the occassion when after watching a Barsa game I have felt someone else but Messi had been the best player of the team in comparison with Cronaldo and Real Madrid, where I quite often feel other guys stood out more/displayed greater skill even when Cronaldo was the one scoring the goals.

 

Yeah for some fans who just watch (few games) , observed their names in the scoring chart ... and WOW = became best ever?

For goals along?
I had seen no one ever mentioned Hugo Sanchez with 5 Liga topscorer + won 5x Ligas as the best of his decade 80s - let along the all time!

Messi and CR7 were surely among the rare great talents (in their own style and much better than Sanchez)) but what had stopped their "legendary" is that they were "EXPOSED" when played without their Club Team mates!

In other words there are two type of legends:
1- Unconditional type of legends:
Pele Maradona Garrincha Cruyff Beckenbauer Eusebio to ... Platini Zico ... to Ronaldo Zidane

2- Conditional type of Legends: (they look great at certain conditions)
Kopa, Sivori, Mazzola, Gullit, M. Laudrup, Cantona, Baggio, Ronaldinho , Riquelme .. to ... Messi and CR7

 

When was the last time? If it was months ago I think that kind of makes my point. I did say "pretty much" in my statement.

 

I dont remember. I was not refuting your point. Kinda expressing a similar point of view.

 

Last best Iniesta were way back in 2012 and a few games in season 2013 - that was it!

Messi was among the most consistent "great" at club level as last seen with Pele Di Stefano Puskas I would say ... no others

 

They forgot (or deliberately not) to mention WC Euro and Copa as among the very very top tournaments in Football history ... ironically

Let draw the goals of the two vs others in same competitions will you?

That would make the "best" case for the article

 

I'd have to agree. I like the introduction, noting the nice moment between Ronaldo's son and Messi - nice observation.

But from then on with the dismissal of Pele as the best, the focus on the stats of Ronaldo and Messi, the statement about not winning the World Cup rather than not playing great in it (IMO Messi still didn't overall in 2014), the lack of discussion about why gpg have been rising (other than those two players playing) make it all a bit one-sided. Maybe some of us, me included, could be guilty of going too much the opposite way I dunno, but this seems to be too 'factual' in stating they are the best ever, will be remembered as the best ever etc.

 

To be fair, looking again, I see it's only because of the relentless consistency that he calls them the 'greatest' and he says many have been as good in the short-term. Maybe that means he and Figo are coming from different pages/angles with their statements a bit for example and aren't making completely different observations as much as it could seem.

But still, if the World Cup is not the most challenging, does he think that Messi and Ronaldo just can't be bothered to perform great in a tournament that is beneath them or something? And does he not realise that no other player in this era is in contention to be acclaimed the best or greatest ever, so all those Ballon D'ors haven't been won while the 'competitors' for such an accolade were also playing?

Sorry if I sound a bit annoyed about it though (to the author himself and anyone that agrees with him). Just as I say, it seems designed to be one-sided like he is instructed (by himself even) to argue that side and ignore other possibilities and that's how he ends up with the definitive title to the article he does I suppose.

 

While I'm in argumentative mode (I'll turn it off soon!) I'll also say I have to disagree with Sihan Zheng's comment below the article as follows:
"I've personally done a lot of sporting research right, and really, in any sport, it is undeniable that modern athletes are better from an "absolute skill" standpoint"

I'm not completely sure what it means, but I really don't agree with it if he literally means skill. He follows up by talking about nutrition, training etc but that doesn't explain his statement IMO. Not saying everyone will agree with me but football is not 100m running - it's not inevitable that the best of the new generation is better than the best of all previous ones, and how far would he take that theory - is Iniesta literally better then Cruyff for example too?

Ok, rant over and no offence meant to him or the author btw.

 

Anyway, to try and articulate my objections in a bit more of a considered way using examples (albeit hypothetical):

- If Messi of 2010 and Sneijder of that same year, were playing to similar effect in 1984 would Platini still win the Ballon D'or? How would Sneijder (even allowing transportation back in time Bill and Ted style of his 2010 self with all benefits of nutrition and training) fare for Juventus and France if directly put in Platini's place?

- If C.Ronaldo of 2014 had a similar year, with similar scoring levels (even if the difference in team-mates moreso than the era would throw that in doubt) playing in 1974 for Real Madrid, would Cruyff still take the Ballon D'or?

I would contend Platini and Cruyff probably do still take the Ballon D'Or's. But so as not to be a hypocrite I won't say they definitely would have done.

 

Only right that different groups of people see different players as the best ever, as opposed to Pele as the undisputed number one. Pele has his case, of course, but so do others, and ultimately it's impossible to decide whose argument is the heaviest, as football is not a sport that enables decisive "best ever" status, unlike, say, 100m sprint where you more or less just check the time. Do Messi and Cristiano belong to a group of the best of the best? Messi does, obviously, and Cristiano probably as well.

 

Far to much emphasise on stats again, if you go on that gpg basis when you talk about best ever then Gerd Muller should be up there as he had spectacular gpg ratio in Bundesliga, European comps, and International level, we all know however that despite being one of the best centre forwards he was certainly no Cruyff who deservedly dominated the awards of the day.

GPG figures get severly skewed I feel in Spain now, don't get me wrong what Ronaldo and Messi are doing and thier level of consistency is amazing but they play in a league which thier two clubs dominate more than ever and often defeat teams heavily on a regular basis and they can get a benefit from that. They would obviously not score as many if they played in Serie A of say late 80s and early 90s but would they even be as dominant given games were a lot closer, who knows.

If you look at Ronaldo now versus in his 07-08 season at Man utd, could he play at that same level in the same postion now? Probably not. He now plays in a very different position and for a Real Madrid team that is far more dominat than even when he arrived and he has benefited from this massively.

Another point I feel is linked is now Barca and Real Madrid have benefited hugely from the proportion of TV money in Spain they recieve comapred to others which is massviely skewed in thier favour, which has in turn increased thier dominance and therefore boosted Messi and Ronaldo's stats up a notch. Again, I am not trying to knock them but their circumstances are optimum to produce those sort of stats, they still have to deliver though.

 

I dunno. La Liga offers solid opposition, and other clubs have done well in Europe as well. And, of course, it's not like they win every match 6-0. But of course, impossible to know what would happen if we picked Barca and Real Madrid and placed them in late 80's Serie A.

 

Ronaldo has actually been in the Team of the Tournament twice for the Euros. Will probably be 3 or 4 times by the time he retires.

 

The stats seem to say otherwise, look at Barclona and Real Madrid's amount of goals compared to the other top 3 team the past six seasons, and now compare that to 20 years ago, I strongly beleive they are Ronaldo and Messi are scoring more as are in a more dominant team as opposed to them scoring so many to make them so dominant.

13-14
Atletico Madrid 77 goals
Barca 100
Real Madrid 104

12-13
Barca 115
Real Madrid 103
Atletico Madrid 65

11-12
Real Madrid 121
Barcelona 114
Valencia 59

10-11
Barcelona 95
Real Madrid 106
Valencia 64

09-10
Barcelona 98
Real Madrid 102
Valencia 59

08-09
Barcelona 105
Real Madrid 83
Sevilla 54

With 20 years ago

95-96
Atletico Madrid 75
Valencia 77
Barcelona 72

94-95
Real Madrid 76
Deportivo 68
Betis 46

93-94
Barcelona 91
Deportivo 54
Zaragoza 71

92-93
Barcelona 87
Real Madrid 75
Deportivo 67

91-92
Barcelona 87
Real Madrid 78
Atletico 67

 

hmmm... I did a statistical analysis a few weeks ago which deflated CR7's and Messi's goal tallies by estimating how many goals they would score if they played in an era where top teams "only" scored 75-85 goals per season (instead of the 110-120 goals per season their current teams get), which was the case in the EPL 10-15 years ago. And even if you deflate the numbers further to take away CR7's obscene amount of PK goals, they would still break the EPL scoring record almost every season.

It depends how you view the stats. You might be thinking, 'well, big deal. So they would score slightly more than Thierry Henry. That proves nothing since Henry isn't even in the discussion for best ever player.'
That's where the longevity argument kicks-in. Having 10-12 seasons that are slightly better than Henry's best season, adds up to being a whole lot better at the end of a career. And the author of this article builds his argument on the premise that 'if CR7 and Messi keep this up for a few more years... '.

 

Neither one looks out of this world at the World Cup, or even the Euros/Copa America. Just from recent times, Riquelme's Copa America 07 is better than any of Messi's CA performances, and Zidane's or Figo's Euro00 is miles ahead of any of C Ronaldo's Euros. Not even necessary to bring the World Cup, where many players have looked much better than C Ronaldo, and at least on par with Messi.

Here's the question that everyone ignores or conveniently dismisses: why are either one of them not dominant in international tournaments? Shouldn't a player who is being considered for being the best ever be able to make one of these tournaments his own, beyond how anyone else is performing?

 

I don't see that issue being ignored. Half of the posts in this thread already bring up this point.

But I don't see these tournaments as the be-all and end-all. Especially since they haven't been "bad" in those tournaments. They just lack having any dominant int'l tournaments so far. I don't know if that automatically rules them out of the 'best ever' debate. It's just a strike against them, but every player in the 'best ever' debate has strikes against them.

 

yes but he was never the best of any tournaments from Euro to WC ( his closest form was back in the Euro2004 when Portugal got the best squad with Deco Figo Rui costa ... ironically)

- Euro16 will be his last trial and we'll see

 

who? which group of people?
a bunch of younger fans who never seen Pele and never even did a slight research (on Pele career) to have thought he was a myth? LOL

the best ever would be like NEVER FAIL (or arguably so)

Both Messi and CR7 failed dearly outside their stars studded CLUB team mates