The Bruce Arena Coaching Thread

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by GiallorossiYank, Nov 22, 2016.

  1. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    Nice try dude, but we're talking about Klinsmann's Bayern Munich tenure here.
     
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  2. tyguy

    tyguy Member

    Apr 11, 2006
    Cheeseland
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kinda sorta off topic, but maybe not. I was watching Germany vs Chile in the Conf Cup. Germany's defense had the ball near their own box. Chile was pressing hard. The Germans were passing the ball back and forth in tight spaces between the Chileans. I kept thinking "boot the damn ball out of there!". A few moments later, they found an open lane to a midfielder, who made a nice pass forward and a few more passes, then GOOOOOL.

    Two things. My 'boot the ball out of danger' mentality has been ingrained by watching the USA team do just that. Is this a problem with our coaching? And B, why can't we develop players with the smarts and skills to do what the Germans did. It was simple passing. No fancy dribbling. No shake and bake. No tricks. Just calm, cool, and collected. And it was all done under intense pressure from Chile.
     
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  3. VBCity72

    VBCity72 Member+

    Aug 17, 2014
    Sunny San Diego
    Club:
    Plymouth Argyle FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The German players are better players than us and Chile and the German team is better than us and Chile. IMO
     
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  4. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    It's the ability of the players to do it and the desire of the coach/team to play that way. Our previous coach put a high emphasis on playing out of the back selecting players who could execute. It is definitely something I'd like to see us continue to focus on.

    With center backs of Brooks and Cameron, it is much less risky than when a guy like Gonzalez is back there. If you go to the Miazga thread in YA, you'll see articles where the coach said he had a lot to work on initially as they expected their backs to play a significant part in starting the attack. I think going forward, we only get better as our young high potential backs are all more comfortable on the ball than the last generation.

    I'm sure many others can go about the influence of the English in our coaching programs as well as other tactical issues that make it harder.
     
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  5. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    They're a hell of a lot better than Wales too. However, the latter were lucky to have a good coach.
     
  6. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Wales has guys named Ramsey and Bale too.

    I am not sure the USA has ever had players close to those quality players offensively.
     
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  7. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Portugal dealt with them easily. They couldn't do that to us.
     
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  8. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Different manager, different tactics, different mind set, different team.
     
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  9. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Portugal may have stopped Ramsey because he did not play against them BTW. :p:D
     
  10. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    really good post.

    my take: you have hit on something very important and a big reason - not the only reason, mind you - why i hate the "typical" us approach of boot and chase...it doesnt punish teams for pressing against the usmnt. the teams who press should think "shit if we press we are gonna leave ourselves open"...but when the team being pressed just panic clears it every time...it allwos the pressing team to keep pressing with impunity, worryfree. there's many other reasons why i hate "booting" it out every time a defender gets the ball....but for now.....to answer your questions:
    a: yes, it is a problem with coaching. coaches in the US give very specific instructions to players - the good coaches - and want them to play a certain, precise way. they micromanage and dont really allow for a lot of freelancing in their players. i would say us coaches generally demand a very robotic style from their players. it doesnt matter how technically proficient a player is if they feel like they dont have license to do whatever they want on the field. if a player knows the coach will have his back as long as he follows instructions...then all he's gotta do to keep his job is be a rule-follower. in turn, us players dont really know how to "break the ruels" on the field. they dont know how to solve problems and create problems for their opponents spontaneously. or maybe they do but they arent allowed to play that way. creative players are not valued in the us system. look at the gold cup roster. where is the creativity? its not there. because the traits that would allow a player to play out of pressure arent selceted in us player selection.
    basically, when a us team is playing soccer ...they are playing how the coach wants them to play. they are playing within a system that is very clear about what they can and cannot do. when a team like germany is playing the players are figuring out how to beat the team in a setup that was created by the coach. us players just arent expected to be able to solve problems in-game...players who do that sort of thing are seen as a negative....the ones who follow instructions and know their role are favored. us players dont "think the game". it goes all the waY back to development..and thus, coaching. i think pulisic is a new breed that actually thinks the game....but he is a different player on bvb than usmnt ....i think donovan had this ability too. technically i dont think the us team cant play like the other cuntries do. and i think the players who think the game are there in the us pool...but the ones who are selcted are the ones who fit the traditonal us style.....it is an inferior style which will never be able to best the teams who can think the game in the moment. an anaolgy would be improv vs sticking to the script. us players cant improv. they can only stick to the script - which is less dangerous. if the script - the coach instructions are good - then the team has a chance - if not, no way - a la argentina copa match for example. a big probelm with the us style is it is so easy to plan against.
    not a fan of JK...but one thing he did was say how the team has to come up with their tactics on their own. which doesnt fit with how us players see the game....and there should be a gameplan regardless of whether players should be able to adjust on the fly or not. jk was bad at tactics and gameplanning but i think he had a point - kind of - in that us players need to learn how adjust tactics on their own when they - how to "think the game" -i think this ability is just so foreign to us players cuz it is not something coaches expect - or want - out of players. in fact, it is seen as a huge negative if a player freelances or tries to solve problems that didnt fit the gameplan. the players should have the ability to make thier own gameplan on the spot together if what they are doing isnt working...but i dont get that feeling from the us players...that they are tactically "thinking the game"....like at all.
    B: the players are there that can play this way....they arent favored. teh ones with superior physical attributes -ones who fit a more boot and chase game - are chosen. the ones who can play tic tac toe just happen to also be the ones who arent the most physically outstanding. dont make the mistake of thinking that whoever is on the field is the "best"...and that is the best that can be done by the team. choices have been made i.e. style of play. whats crazy to me is that the recent coaches of the us have decdided on their own taht the us simply cannot play with the ball and have preemptively not allowed it to even be a possibilty. under the right coach, with the right lineup, you would be shocked at how well the current us player pool could play under pressure ...it just isnt seen as a viabled style by the current leadership...so the players who are on the field arent the ones who are capable of it.
     
  11. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    We had a tactically poor coach and then were also missing several defenders, which meant that the entire left side of our defense was very inexperienced.

    Still, I believe that the quarter-final against Wales will long be seen as a huge missed opportunity for this generation. They are unlikely to get another such an easy path (on paper at least) to the semi-finals of a major tournament.
     
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  12. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That certainly is a different take on things......;)
     
  13. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The great edge Arena has over Klinsmann is that his is a sharply defined system, whereas JK's was an unsettled mess. What you have forcefully argued above is for the need of a world class manager to take the place of Arena after 2018, one with proven success in building a culture of play that gives full room to the creative, dynamic, aspects of the game. Jurgen's hire was a huge, amateurish, mistake. But the impulse to say "it's time to surpass what has gotten us by in the past" was justified.
     
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  14. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Every country that's not Germany (and a handful of others) asks how they can be Germany. It looks simple, but requires technique, vision, good movement and familiarity with the system / teammates. And still, they got caught in possession a couple times. Not many countries in the world can break Chile's press. Mexico is definitely not a "just-boot-it" team and they got moiderized by Chile. That just proves there's no "right" way to play; teams play to their strengths and that becomes their style.

    Culture doesn't change from the top. This is what we should've learned from the ill-fated "Jurgen Era".
     
  15. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is that the era that gave us the #1 (2013) and #2 (2012) highest win% in the history of the USMNT?

    I would really love for Bruce to move that bar higher in 2017!
     
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  16. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I guarantee you nobody gives the shit about the NT win% because half the games a national team plays are meaningless. And of course, that says nothing about the culture, which seemed to go backwards in the last cycle. For example, here are some more meaningful records from the Jurgen Era, since this was the culmination of his cycle in charge:

    -No competitive wins against a top 15 side.
    -Broke record for number of saves in a World Cup
    -Nearly tied record for most shots on goal taken in a World Cup match (3 fewer than Yugoslavia's 9-0 victory over Zaire, considered the worst showing of an African team in a WC ever).
    -0 goals, 4 shots on goal in 270 regulation minutes against top 10 sides in the Copa (at home)

    I won't even get into failure to beat teams poorer than us that we used to beat; this is Jurgen's record against top teams. While some of this is down to personnel, we should all expect Bruce to do better (he has in the past).
     
  17. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I will remember that "nobody gives a shit about win%" as the next 14 months unfolds. I will remember that half the matches a NT plays are meaningless. I guess I have nothing to look forward to this year. :cry:

    Competitive wins against a top 15 side, now that is a good one. I will remember that is what's important going forward over the next 14 months.

    Klinsmann's competitive record against FIFA top 15 sides is very poor: W1-T1-L5.
    Portugal (#3) T2-2, Germany (#2) L0-1, Belgium (#11) L1-2, Colombia (#3) L0-2, Uruguay (#9) W2-1, Argentina (#1) L0-4, Colombia (#4) L0-1
     
  18. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This might not be the thread to continue to attempt to rehab Klinsmann's image. It would be tough (and hopefully won't occur) for Bruce to duplicate some of these low lows.

    1. First loss to a Caribbean Island nation since 1969.
    2. Worst Qualifying loss since 1947, 0-4 Costa Rica.
    3. First home loss since 2001 in the Hex.
    4. Failure to qualify the USA for the Olympics (twice) since 1976.
    5. Losing to Guatemala, the lowest ranked team we ever lost to (88th), also the first time we had lost to them since 1988.
    6. First time ever we did not play in a Gold Cup final, since South American teams were not invited.
    7. First qualifying loss at home to Mexico, since we began playing in the Hex

    This is what I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure there are more. It will be interesting one day when the inside story is revealed.

    Anyway, hopefully, we are past this stuff.
     
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  19. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How about focusing on the highs that Bruce can take us to this year since Bruce has a few lows himself.

    Bruce has a shot at either the #1 or #2 win% or the 12 match win streak.
     
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  20. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I appreciate your attitude, I commend you for focusing forward and for focusing on the positive that Arena can aim for in the coming months. That being said, what I really hope for from Arena is that he is the following:

    1. We get at least 4 points in the next two games and go on to qualify for Russia (6 would be ideal). I know our situation looks good now but it aint over til it's over and we can't get complacent.
    2. I hope he is able to learn what he needs to learn about the younger and fringe players during the next couple of months and the Gold Cup. Winning the Cup would be great but it isn't as important as what he can learn. Hopefully at least one or two important players will emerge and play a significant role in Russia. In addition to new players, I hope that at least one of the semi established players takes the opportunity and shows they deserve a more prominent role going forward.

    The winning percent and or win streak would be nice but the real prize is in Russia. Our goal should be to advance beyond the round of 16 and see where that takes us.
     
  21. Tony in Quakeland

    Jan 27, 2003
    Pleasant Hill, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Over the last eight years or so I have seen club and even a few high school teams play out of the back, rotate the ball etc. okay, they're not Germany but when I did see teams bypassing the midfield it was reasonably rare. I think that it has been as much the tactical posture of JK as anything else. He ignored passers and ball handlers in defense and the middle in favor of fast and fit, with a lot of hooting thrown in.
    Small disagreement. Arena has no system. He has cleared pragmatism and a great grasp of his players abilities. Add in a great ability to communicate clearly. His tactical approach varies according to personnel and opponent.
     
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  22. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Another thing to consider is that the number one goal of EVERY defense is to prevent the other team from scoring. The difference from there is how much are the defenders expected to contribute to the offense. Regardless of how much defenders are expected to play out of the back, every defender in every defensive scheme has a threshold where he just boots it out of danger. Where that threshold is depends a great deal upon the skill of the defender and of the defenders around him. Until we achieve the level of ability that Germany has, their threshold is one that we much have as a longer term goal but our near term reality will be somewhat different.
     
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  23. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have lower expectations than me. The fact that Bradley could not tackle Gio, Gonzo could not hit a wide open header, Bradley did not pass to a wide open Wood, and Brooks decided to leave Rafa open for a wide open header does not change my expectations.

    We have CR at home and away to Honduras. We stomped CR W4-0 last year at Copa and demolished Honduras W6-0 a couple of months ago. We have a renewed squad and an emerging Talisman in Pulisic.

    Its not just about getting to Russia, 4 teams will likely get to Russia. It was not last cycle, it is not this cycle and it should not be just making the WC next cycle.

    We have grown past that.
     
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  24. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not to obsess with JK, but this was one of my big problems with him. He seemed to value athleticism over technical ability at every position, except, bizarrely, center back. He picked center backs for their ability to play out of the back, and then neutralized that ability by giving them no one to pass to.
     
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  25. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I agree that it is not just about getting to Russia but it doesn't matter at all if Arena has a top winning percentage or long winning/unbeaten streak if we do poorly in Russia. Everything we do from here out is preparation for Russia and we have to check the boxes. The first, most important box, is to get to Russia.

    I don't know if I have lower expectations as much as I don't place much stock in friendly wins. (friendly wins would be required to maintain the unbeaten streak and would undoubtedly play a part in the win percentage.) Anytime we lose I will be disappointed but won't lose too much sleep over a poor friendly performance if we can look back with 20/20 vision and see that we actually gained/learned something out of it. While I have always felt, to a degree, that friendlies are not for winning but for preparation, learning, experimenting etc with winning as a secondary goal, it was really reinforced by the away wins against Germany and Holland (and before that Italy) where we played fearlessly and beat big teams but couldn't come close to replicating the attitude or performance against big teams in games that mattered. We didn't learn anything that we could apply when it counted.

    What is important to me is making it to Russia AND doing well there. I think we should have advancing past the round of 16 as a goal and see where the run takes us. in order to do that, Arena needs to put together a few more pieces of the puzzle. I think he is still learning how to use the players he has and needs to get to know other potential players a bit better to see where they fit in. I feel that Arena felt that the players he started with (mostly those chosen by Klinsmann) made a good roster with which he could qualify the team and using the established players would be beneficial because it would give a good foundation upon which to build. Now that he has a bit more time, however, I think he has some players in mind that he wants to work in to the team and see where they fit in. Roldan is a very good example of a player that hasn't seen any time with the NT but could be in Russia and possibly could see significant time. Agudelo is getting a chance to show he is finally able to live up to his potential. Saief is an interesting choice (I know nothing more than what I read which is that he is a versatile player that can play second striker, LM, Wingback or Left back). hopefully there are a couple of players from that roster that make us stronger in Russia.

    As far as CR and Honduras go, I think we should be able to beat both teams and qualifying is something that is almost assured but I also understand and that S^&t happens.
     

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