The Bruce Arena Coaching Thread

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by GiallorossiYank, Nov 22, 2016.

  1. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Why is this shocking? (I understand that you are being sarcastic and trying for ironic humor).

    I was initially against Klinsmann's hiring. I thought it was a mistake. I believed then as I do now that he got far too much credit for achieving a 3rd place finish with Germany in Germany and his stint with Bayern Munich was less than impressive. If anything, his stint with Bayern was much the same as his stint with the German national team. Bayern's finish was one that most any team would consider special but for a team with Bayern's resources and history it was underwhelming. As time went on and I saw how Klinsmann ran the team, I became a "hater". You seem to feel that we haters are all the same. The fact is that we come in all shapes and sizes and we came to disapprove of the job he did at different stages and because there is so much to hate, we each have our own favorite things to hate. Donovan is a common thread that runs through much of it but you fail to see that it is much more than that and the simple fact is that there is a lot to hate.
     
  2. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I agree that Cameron was and is very important. I acknowledged the fact that Dempsey was unavailable for the Mexico and CR games.

    When reading 442's commentary I was struck by the first paragraph:
    "How this game ended goalless in normal time defies logic. Two stats sum up what was a crazy, cracker of a match in Salvador. First, Tim Howard ended the game with 15 saves, more than any other player at a World Cup game in the last 48 years. Second, Belgium’s final total of 39 shots is the fourth highest total in a World Cup game since records of such things started being charted in 1966. Madness."

    It shows how picking and choosing quotes can give wildly different pictures but i agree that 442 seems to believe the game was closer than I think it was. I disagree and the possession stats are pretty irrelevant when you consider the difference in shots, shots on goal and corner kicks and saves and one off the woodwork. (most of the stats were in the neighborhood of 3:1 ratio). Even the 59% possession stat that you referenced was for the first 20 minutes while the overall possession advantage was 52% to 48%.
    http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=255951/match=300186497/statistics.html

    If my characterization of the Belgium game is bizarre than I am sorry. I remember us being on our heels and fending off attack after attack. I remember Klinsmann making offensive subs after we were down 2-0.

    I wonder how you rationalize in your mind the complete and utter dominance of Belgium in all the important offensive stats except for goals? I say that Howard saved our asses from humiliation but even his heroics weren't quite enough. I say that the team fought valiantly but it wasn't our day. I say that Klinsmann's plan or lack of a plan was made to look much better than it really was by the result and the fact that the US never gave up...even when down 2-0 in the dying minuetes. What do you say?

    Klinsmann himself seems to feel that we played a bit too defensively until it was too late. (I guess he disagrees with 442?)
    “Here and there, I think it’s a little bit still the mental approach,” Klinsmann said. “We have to learn more and more. I think that we are in that process to take our game to the opponent no matter what their name is. Here and there we wait just a little bit too long to start our game.” http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/07/jur...rld-cup-united-states-soccer-weakness-belgium

    I am also sure that if you look hard enough, you can find articles that describe the game in a different manner than you portray the game. https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2014/7/1/5861996/usa-vs-belgium-2014-world-cup-final-score-result
     
  3. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    #728 Mahtzo1, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
    For Nagbe I meant for this cycle...sorry about any confusion. (he was available for the Copa and the beginning of the Hex. Some don't think he is an improvement and some feel he isn't but the point is that with only a few exceptions, the players available to Arena are the same as those available to Klinsmann. Acosta played for Klinsmann as a left back, Villafana did not play but was available. Pulisic was available and doing well at Dortmund but Klinsmann didn't trust him until the Mexico game but the planning and implementation was problematic. When Arena played Mexico he had the choice of playing his first choice players at less than 100% due to having played 2 days before at altitude or trusting his younger depth players to do a job in an extremely difficult situation. this is analogous to Klinsmann's situation in Brazil where the conditions were harsh and Klinsmann failed to use his bench. Would it have mattered? perhaps not...especially considering his choices on the bench but it indicates a difference in planning for outside factors that can and will have an effect on the game itself.

    In Mexico, playing with many of his depth players, Arena played a conservative game plan, gave up possession but successfully limited Mexico's offense while creating danger on the other end. Every important stat was fairly close and it could be argued that the US had more good chances. Mexico hit the bar and Bradley hit a post. Chicharito missed once while Gonzalez missed twice etc.

    As it is, we escaped with a point at Azteca. Howard was kept out to avoid re-injuring his hernia and we escaped the game without any new injuries that I am aware of. Not bad in my book.
     
  4. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I just noticed this. this is an excellent example of how something is worded can make it seem like something it is not. Basically this says that it is the first time in the past 4 wc games in which we had more than 50% possession. What it doesn't say is that there was only one game in 2010 (Ghana) but three games in 2014 (Ghana, Portugal, Germany) for which this stat holds. Is possession important? Not by itself but I hope you get my point.
     
  5. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    The whole time Klinsman was the boss all I heard about was Bob Bradley. Now Arena is the coach and there is this constant bickering about Klinsman. It is insane. All this arguing over records is dumb spin too.

    Klinsman was excellent 2013-2014. He tried to do something (maybe a plan maybe not) at the 2015 GC and it was miserable. The Copa was good, but I think that was the players and Klinsi had little to do with it. JK made a complete mess of the start of the Hex, particularly against Mexico, and the team needed a change. Trying to spin 2013-2014 as bad or 2015-2016 as good is wasted bandwidth. Klinsman had strengths and weaknesses as a coach and good and bad results. His player pool was not as good as Arena's current pool or even Arena's pool at the 2002 WC possibly.

    The only thing that annoys about the Arena-bots is they constantly talk about getting to the quarters of the WC as brilliant. It is a great achievement. But they overlook the third group game against Poland. That has got to be the worst defeat for the USMNT. Only through South Korea and the ref beating Portugal; did the USMNT even get out of the group. After beating Portugal, and tying eventual semi-finalists South Korea, the USMNT had their destiny in their hands and got completely outplayed by a mediocre Poland side and were deserving to have been sent home.

    2006 was a disaster too.

    Arena is doing a great job of Qualifying us, which was in jeopardy. He deserves the World Cup. But, USSF has to stop extending coaches past the World Cup. Every 4 year cycle should have a new coach. This extends to the USWNT too, as Jill Ellis in 2017 looks a lot like JK in 2015...
     
  6. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Back to Arena's coaching now...

    I would like to see the 3-4-3/5-4-1 vs. Honduras and maybe even T&T. I think we can shut these teams out on the road playing like we did vs Mexico. I also think these teams, if they come forward to get a Win (and they will both need it) will be killed by Wood, Pulisic, Nagbe, etc. on the counter or Acosta on free kicks. We should consider playing this way on the road in CONCACAF for the foreseeable future.
     
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  7. 2in10

    2in10 Member+

    LA Galaxy, Internazionale
    United States
    Jun 19, 2016
    Sparks, NV
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This could also be set up against Honduras and T&T to be a more aggressive package as those teams are no where near as good of teams as Mexico.

    I suspect this would work well for us at Costa Rica if we need a point but I would think in general early in the Hex it might be in favor of the home sides. Of course this may only be viable for one more cycle due to the changes to the WC in 2026.
     
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  8. juveeer

    juveeer Member+

    Aug 3, 2006
    FINALLY the last couple of posts have remembered this is the BRUCE ARENA Coaching Thread!
     
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  9. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bruce needs to wear suits with skinny ties. Maybe a sweater vest. Call it the pitch instead of field, all that good stuff.
     
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  10. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe if he got into a rhythm of pro-actively expressing himself.
     
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  11. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  12. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Or at least a coaches' term should never go past one full standard cycle.
     
  13. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your use of another person's eyes to characterize what your eyes presumably were capable of seeing in the Belgium match is well past the line of "Bizarre". What really happened is what really happened, and you can readily see it for yourself. However, since you prefer to base your biased point of view on some other's biased point of view, rather than relying on direct experience, here are a couple of gems which discredit your 2nd order biased point of view.

    In his 104th cap, Howard single-handedly kept the USMNT in the match until the end of their memorable 2-1 loss with a World-Cup record 16 saves. It’s the most in the tournament since 1966, when they started keeping records....The most recorded saves previous to Howard was 13 and came in 1978, by Peru’s Ramon Quiroga.
    The withering onslaught by the Belgium attack was also one for the record books; their 38 shots is tied for fourth most since 1966 and the most since 1974. The Red Devils’ 27 shots on goal is tied for second most since 1996, three less than Yugoslavia’s most against Zaire in 1974.

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2014...ard-sets-world-cup-record-16-saves-vs-belgium

    You don't like that one? Not sufficiently Euro for you? Ok, take a small taste of the BBC:

    That Jurgen Klinsmann's men survived so long owed everything to an outstanding goalkeeping performance by Tim Howard, who made a record number of saves in a World Cup match. In front of him, his team-mates were simply outclassed.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/27990605

    Yeah, "argument from authority" is, logically, worthless. Just reminding you that the sword cuts both ways. Of course, if you allow yourself the responsibility to argue for yourself, keep in mind the actual data on how Belgium's attacked dominated, as per FIFA [http://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume...6/35/eng_56_0701_bel-usa_fulltime_neutral.pdf]

    Possession: Belgium 46% -- 54 % USA
    Shots: Belgium 34--14 USA
    Shots on goal: Belgium 29-9 USA
    Corners: Belgium 19--4 USA

    In short,it is the most shots against the USA in a world cup match in the last 50 years [at least]. In short, it is the most shots on goal against the USA in a world cup match in the last 50 years [at least]. In short, it is historically bad............

    But I give you your due, we did hold the ball longer. Apparently the Belgians were just too busy swiftly slashing through our defense, and raining hell fire on Timmy, to worry about slowing it all down in order to win the coveted Bass Back Pete award. The idiots.
     
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  14. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry. It is a waste of time trying to discuss if we bunkered against Belgium with someone who does not understand the difference between the respected tactical analytics sites like fourfourtwo and ZonalMarking and instead offer Mlssoccer.com and bbc?
     
  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Nothing in your post suggests we "bunkered"... which is all I think thhf and I are disagreeing with. I can't believe a team bunkers and concedes that many shot or gets as many as we did. It's too bad US fans can't be more proud of the effort put forth that day by the 13 players not named Howard.
     
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  16. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    For what it is worth, i never said we bunkered. I said we played defensively. Perhaps I should have said that we were constantly on our heels. Of course, by definition, if the other team is attacking as much as Belgium was able to do, we must be defending at least part of that time (I would think). But maybe that is a bizarre conclusion?

    I won't say anything more because, although there are comparison points with Arena, this discussion is more about our past coach.
     
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  17. TheLostUniversity

    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Feb 4, 2007
    Greater Boston
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bruce Arena is doing a very good job of saving a nearly ruined WCQ campaign, and has a team that is genuinely playing together. I have confidence that he will have a team ready for Russia that will be dangerous and, modulo the luck of the draw, is capable of matching [at least] the 2002 result.
    After 2018 we should have a new coach [ if we don't then the USSF really learns nothing from experience..]. What must be the mission of this new coach? To build a national team that does justice to the explosion in quality and variety of our young talent, and which aims at achieving an expectation [an average] which matches what is now our highest expectation. That is, the aim should be to build a team that seizes the opportunity to become a permanent top 10 team in the world.
    After years of self-aggrandizing rhetoric substituting for real achievement, it's time to aim for real achievement.
     
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  18. seeds

    seeds Member

    Apr 23, 2002
    NYC
    That'd be silly. He doesn't have the culture for that, clearly.
     
  19. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, outside of his comfort zone? Can't remember if that is a good thing, or not. Progress!
     
  20. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    What exactly happened with JK with Germany and BM?

    did he just piss off too many people with his methods?
     
  21. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I am far from an expert but I think that was part of it combined with results that were less than what Bayern was expecting. That is a club that doesn't settle for anything less than the very best. When Klinsmann was with Bayern they finished third in the Bundesliga. There is an awful lot written about his time there and at least one book.
     
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  22. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001
    I rationalize the Belgium game pretty simply. They're a hell of a lot better than we are.
     
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  23. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Important to separate the two situations:

    After managing Germany to a very surprising WC2006 3rd place finish with a young squad and revitalized approach, Klinsmann was a national hero. He was awarded Germany's highest civilian medal and offered the MNT job for the 2010 cycle. Klinsmann declined saying he needed a break from coaching. Note that after winning WC2014 Lowe, and several leaders of that squad went out of their way to give Klinsmann a share of the credit for that win.

    When Klinsmann took over FC Hollywood 2 years later he made several mistakes including not strengthening the squad (JK brought in some guy named Donovan over the protests of the technical director) and bringing in Vasquez instead of an experienced BuLi assistant. He was fired 3 points out of first place with 5 matches to go after reportedly meeting with the board and refusing to fire Vasquez which was the board's ultimatum. KHR publicly came out a couple of yeras ago and said Bayern made a mistake.

    [​IMG]

    While we hear the oft repeated quote from Lahm's 2011 book skewering 3 GMNT coaches including JK we never hear about Lahm publicly in subsequent years praising JK for the methods he instituted at Bayern and Germany!
     
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  24. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Although, this has been discussed many times and not sure why we are threadjacking, I had not seen Toni Kroos remarks before . .

    https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/u...-kroos-jurgen-klinsmann-bayern-munich-germany

    In an interview with Zeit Sport (translated and tweeted by Rene Maric), the midfielder was asked about his former Bayern Munich and Real Madrid managers and while he had plenty of good things to say about Pep Guardiola and Carlo Ancelotti, his comments on Klinsmann were scathing.

    Zeit: "What's with Jurgen Klinsmann?"

    Kroos: "In his time at Bayern I couldn't see anything: Game model, inadequate communication - or success."

    ...

    Zeit: "Jurgen Klinsmann had a big impact in the development which led us to the World Cup with Joachim Löw."

    Kroos: "Not true."

    More detailed analysis:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/apr/27/jurgen-klinsmann-sacked-bayern-munich-bundesliga

    "We didn't come to this decision easily", said the vice-president, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, at the packed press conference. "But the results of the past weeks, the way they came about and especially the situation with five games to go forced us to act out of responsibility to the club." "Klinsmann lost all the important games since the winter break," added Hoeness.

    Some of Klinsmann's initial, radical ideas – getting rid of the pantomime enforcer Mark van Bommel and the hopelessly average Michael Rensing in goal – were right but then either not followed through with conviction or resisted at board level.

    Plenty of others, though, were plain daft. Dabbling with a 3-5-2 system, picking an assistant manager without Bundesliga experience, yoga classes for the players, Landon Donovan … "His concept convinced us – on paper," said Hoeness pointedly. Minutes before kick-off players still did not know whether they were supposed to play a pressing game. After very vocal off- and on-the-record criticism of tactics that were seen as too attacking by key squad members, Klinsmann relented in February. The numbers improved slightly but his credibility was damaged irreparably.

    His list of mistakes and bad results on their own might not have been enough to warrant the sack but they were in painfully sharp contrast to his promises of a brave new Bavarian world (scientific methods, top-level tactics, personal and collective improvement).
     
  25. Gacm32

    Gacm32 Member+

    Chelsea
    Switzerland
    Nov 28, 2010
    Geneva
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    Do y'all think Bruce is planning on utilizing the 3 back system, in some iteration, on a consistent basis? It seems as if he has chosen a few players in the wide positions that have extensive experience playing in a 3 back system. I like the idea, in theory, and think we should move away from a 4-4-2 with a diamond in the midfield. We get outnumbered, Pulisic is ineffective he is trying to defend against two midfielders, and MB is not a good fit as a lone D-mid. I would prefer and 4-3-3 or a 3-5-2/3-4-3. We will see what happens, but I don't agree with allowing ourselves to outnumbered in midfield every game.
     

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