The Big "Paucity of English Youth Talent" Debate!

Discussion in 'England' started by The Guardian, Oct 3, 2010.

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  1. itfcjoe

    itfcjoe Member+

    Oct 8, 2014
    Club:
    Ipswich Town FC
    I don't know if it has been discussed on here previously, so apologies if covering old ground....

    When you see 16 boys coming in every year and debuts being made later, it really feels that the academy system would work far better if it went back to the U17 and U19 days - giving 3 year scholarships rather than the 2 we have now.

    With so many boys, and so few games (and so many being kept on after 2nd year it seems especially at big clubs) then having 3 properly competitive teams for the young scholars and pros (U17, U19 and U23) works far better than what we have now - even more so now that Development side has changed from U21 to U23.

    There must be countless players barely getting a game even though they are full time footballers now.
     
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  2. Juni

    Juni Member+

    Nov 26, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    They (PL/EPPP organisers) floated the idea of a return to U17/U19 around this time last year but it was largely disagreed with.
     
  3. Juni

    Juni Member+

    Nov 26, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Maybe half a step below Foden and Sancho (just picking excellent two attacking types) but he's a late 2000 and they're both early/mid 2000s and so are in the age group above him at club level. Worth noting that as U16s playing up Sancho had 4+7 apps and 7 goals, Foden just one sub appearance. Hudson-Odoi this season as an an U16 playing up has 13+2 apps and 4 goals (plus 8 assists, don't have comparable numbers for Sancho atm but suspect it'll be much lower), which is not to be sniffed at.
     
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  4. wellno

    wellno Member+

    Jul 31, 2016
    It's an "experience score" not the number of games.

    Although he's only ranked because he's now (just about) a Premier League player. Players currently in the Championship would be excluded from the rankings because they aren't playing in a top flight league, as far as I understand it.
     
  5. Garibaldi11

    Garibaldi11 Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting read : http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr14/en/phone/index.html

    They dub the data capital experience which is the number of matches weighted per level of the club and league where matches are played.
     
  6. itfcjoe

    itfcjoe Member+

    Oct 8, 2014
    Club:
    Ipswich Town FC
    Thanks to all that have pointed out that it is data capital experience (which I had totally missed), whilst it's worthwhile trying to pull something together - excluding anyone not in the top division makes it a bit worthless in many respects.

    If this was done before Cook was signed for Bournemouth, he'd have not been included, but now having 1 more game under his belt he is ranked relatively highly.

    Probably looking into it too much - it is interesting and thanks for sharing. The young keeper playing for Milan is ridiculous, no keeper of that age would get a chance even in L2 in this country no matter how good they are. We have a young keeper (19/20) who can't get a league club to sign him on loan. had a trial at Pompey in pre season, didn't conced a goal across 2 or 3 games, but they then decided they wanted a more experienced head so didn't pursue.
     
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  7. Garibaldi11

    Garibaldi11 Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I've never been one for large academy intakes for various reasons. Too many scholars won't be getting enough game time and there will be a bottleneck for schoolboys being rewarded for their performances at a lower level.

    At Forest we have 12 or 13 in next seasons intake which is abnormally large but I think it is to do with only 8 current u17s so they probably look to have a group of 20 overall. Because a few will be promoted to the u23s and that will allow the schoolboys to compete for u18 selection.

    This year we've had 10 u16s and 3 u15s play for our u18s and that is largely due to 2 u17s and 4 u18s being perm with u23s/first team.

    Getting back to our intake for next season it looks like 9 or 10 locals with one signed from Southend and 3 Frenchman. Guys like Shelvey, Harbottle (started fa youth cup games), Johnson, Asare, Appiah and Swan stand out. Others are Greenwood, Richardson, Barnes and maybe Kubu of which Greenwood hasnt played due to serious injury and Darby who played has been released.

    3 15s have played for England and our youth team in Bondswell, Dekel and Mighten whilst the CF Andrew we signed from Donny has been on the u18 bench. Couple of standouts in the 14s in Back (signed his scholar) and Small.

    Our 13s and 12s are are hugely impressive as a group and individuals so really excited what Forest can do for English football especially because of the system and people Gary Brazil has put in place.
     
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  8. itfcjoe

    itfcjoe Member+

    Oct 8, 2014
    Club:
    Ipswich Town FC
    ITFC normally have smaller intakes, but it has crept up over the last couple of years because of the need to have so many playing U23 football (especially away games were fringe first teamers never play)

    We normally have a number of schoolboys playing up for the U18s, but because of increased numbers in last couple of years intakes that just hasn't happened. I don't know how our next years intake looks because I've barely seen them but our U16s seem to win much more than they lose which is obviously good.

    Presume Dylan Crowe will be one who has played England U15s and 16s, but can't say I've ever been hugely impressed with him - but the coaches in the academy seem to think we have some top talents in younger age groups like Ben Knight who we are battling man City to keep hold of.
     
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  9. IGSpur

    IGSpur Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    I think the reason for such a large intake is because last year's was relatively small, and quite a few will move up-to u23s next year, plus I wouldn't be surprised if a couple were released early.

    However I can see the issue as when our current 2nd years were first years we attended 2 tournaments simultaneously to give players a chance. This happened twice I think.

    We also have a stupid situation with our keepers where we had to loan one to Newcastle for a tournament for experience but that's another story...

    Would also like the u17s/u19s system
     
  10. kbarrett2316

    kbarrett2316 Member

    Feb 20, 2016
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Personally wouldn't mind the U17/U19 option, would be interesting to see how it works out.

    With our scholars for next season, there's a slight possibility we could take on our whole group - there's only eleven plus two foreign players we've signed and a guy who joined at the start of the season from a grassroots club, but no goalkeeper. I know at least five of these should be here next season after being offered deals, plus there's a couple more who have been in and around the U18 squad.

    Quite a strong group, contains four players who have represented England in some capacity. With the goalkeeper situation I'm unsure - one of our first year scholars, Tyler Forde, is the only one not to have played at all, and he really needs some game time (good player imo too). Serine Sanneh will be U15 next season and I see no reason why he can't deputise, Sam Howes did the same in 2012/13.

    There's other first years who haven't had much game time - Forde has had none, Yiannis Constantinou, a striker who joined from Tottenham at the start of last season has only had three sub appearances and there's a couple who have missed time due to injuries. Really hope the club ensure they get a good, fair chance at some point, preferably this season and next.
     
  11. The Guardian

    The Guardian Member+

    Jul 31, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
  12. dbs235

    dbs235 Member

    Mar 30, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Shout-out to Nottingham Forest today, who beat Brighton (who could have gone top today if they'd won) 3-0 with loads of young English players - including the goalscorers. Jordan Smith, Joe Worall, Matty Cash, Ben Osborn all started and Clough, Brereton and Tshibola all came on. Clough x2 and Osborn with the goals.
     
  13. IGSpur

    IGSpur Member

    Apr 14, 2015
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
  14. zXen

    zXen Member

    Oct 16, 2008
    England
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  15. BarryfromEastenders

    Staff Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Pep talking about the academy at City. Starts at 14:26 into the video
     
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  16. The Guardian

    The Guardian Member+

    Jul 31, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Oh yeah. Not sure how I ********ed that up (posting the same Sancho story twice) - but zXen has put the correct one up on here now.
     
  17. The Guardian

    The Guardian Member+

    Jul 31, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Interesting and positive stuff. He comes across really well (I can't stand listening to most of them).
     
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  18. Garibaldi11

    Garibaldi11 Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Talk of Dom Solanke to Liverpool.

    How do we think he would go under Klopp. Certainly seems to be after a young English forward with Sturridge and Ings likely to leave.
     
  19. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    I'm not sure about how much of a chance he will get at Liverpool though, guess it's easier when Summer comes to see who comes and goes. There's something appealing about the move to Leipzig though that I think could be good as it looks like Werner is probably off in the Summer and could be a better opportunity for first team football there. Wherever he ends up he just needs first team football, really can't waste a talent like him sat in the doldrums.
     
  20. Juni

    Juni Member+

    Nov 26, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Don't believe there's anything in that story.
     
  21. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Just thought I'd add this article here as an interest in post Brexit. Not sure how accurate the facts are but interested in the increase of homegrown players ( hopefully )

     
  22. Garibaldi11

    Garibaldi11 Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Liverpool or Leipzig ?

    Just on this subject. How many England youth players look to be on the move this summer (not the big money one's ie M.Keane/Shaw links) ? Got a few possibilities already.

    Dom Solanke - Chelsea (not signing a new deal)
    Liam Walsh - Everton (permanent transfer interest)
    Chris Willock - Arsenal (not signing a new deal)
    Tosin Adarabioyo - Man City (not signing a new deal)


    Careers at a cross-roads ?

    James Wilson - Man Utd
    Ola Aina - Chelsea (Nigerian Links)
    Ruben Loftus-Cheek - Chelsea
    Nathaniel Chalobah - Chelsea
    Chuba Akpom - Arsenal (Nigerian Links)
    Tyias Browning - Everton
    Matt Pennington - Everton
    Luke Garbutt - Everton
    Brendan Galloway - Everton (hardly played)
    Ryan Kent - Liverpool
    Cameron Brannagan - Liverpool
    Cameron Borthwick-Jackson - Man Utd (maybe not quite yet but hardly played)
    Sam Gallagher - Southampton
    Harrison Reed - Southampton

    Will also be interesting how Baker, Palmer, Brown and Abraham's seasons plans go.
     
  23. Marcho Gamgee

    Marcho Gamgee Member+

    England
    Apr 25, 2015
    Somewhere in English Arrogance land
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Is Will Hughes a name we could add there? Just think now is the time for him to move on to a better team with all due respect to Derby but doesn't look like they will be promoted. Just think he needs to take his game to the next level otherwise I fear he might not for fill his potential.
     
  24. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Why are people so high on Hughes? I watched him a few times this year in the flesh and he's been very underwhelming
     
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  25. Jenks

    Jenks Member+

    Feb 16, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    Because he's got great vision and passing.
     
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