The Big "Paucity of English Youth Talent" Debate!

I agree 100%, even without the u21 tournament I think that he plays too much this season

 

Wenger's gonna have to ask Capello to intervene because there's no way Pearce will not pick him. To his credit, Wilshere himself would ask to go but with 2012 coming up end of next season, he risks going 2 seasons without a summer break. At his age, you'd worry about overuse and injury.

 

This is probably a discussion that should be in the U-21s thread but I'll just add a quick reply to what you and Guardian are saying Barry.

From a selfish point of view, I'd love to see Jack go to the U-21 tournament. With him, I think we're a much better team and, given his game-by-game improvement this season, it's not unreasonable to think he might well dominate at that level for us.

Practically though, he's played an awful lot of games already and he's now a senior player. As far as development goes, which is the point of the 21s, he's exceeded that level. Also the risk of fatigue and injury would become a real concern. Granted it's a few games but we'd have to factor in training as well.

I don't know if Fabregas' weak hamstring relates to overuse in his early years but, there's a warning for Jack there.

 

arsenal get alot of injuries because wenger does alot of extra fitness stuff aparently, i remember an ex player talking about it a while back and a physio who worked at arsenal

 

Wilshere is a senior level player now, no need to risk him getting burnt out for the U-21s. It's not as if Pearce would use him correctly either, stick him out on the wing again.

As you say Barry, Josh M is the one who should be given his place in the U-21. He's ready for it and plays a similar role.

 

wilshere should not be used, he is a senior player, same thing as walcott before

pearce is a clueless numpty, typical english coach with limited ideals and tactics

 

Although I overall agree that Pierce has it right , I also see merit in your argument, case in point, CR7 . He was specifically brought back to the Olympic team for the Beijing games and had a dismal showing there, that has been to a certain extent, carried back on the senior team. So in his particular case, " playing back" hindered his progress in the senior team.

 

Oezil played more than 90 club games in 2 seasons and then played for the European U-21 summer tournament in 2009. He then played the following summer for the senior German team in WC2010 and moved to Real Madrid where he is having a great season. Did he get burnt out? No.

Players should be assessed on their individual merits wrt how much they play.

While care of players physical condition needs to be maintained, some folks here are just too scared of injury to let young players actually play. If a player is fatigued or injured then he should be rested, otherwise he is fine to play.

 

Spot on observation Barry. Shame there is nobody to challenge him. He has only one goal which is to keep himself in the job by grinding out results and pointing to his "record".

Yes winning should still be an aim, but not when it risks individual progression through burnout.

 

Not a particularly relevant example in this case, as Germany has a winter break and a less physical league. Also more to the point Oezil had not broken into the senior team in 2008/09.

Players who are already involved in the seniors and play regularly at a good club level should not be involved with the U-21s. Which is effectively Wilshere, possibly also Carroll as well if he is still eligible.

 

In your opinion.

My opinion is that games and tournament experience helps a player mature and develop.

More to the point, Oezil had indeed played for the German senior team before the summer of 2009, when he starred for the Germany U-21 side.

 

No, they are not "fine to play". It's called taking preventative measures to stop a player getting either seriously fatigued or injured, or in the most likely case both. You can't just keep playing and training at a high intensity until you become fatigued or injured. The idea is that you take measures and precautions to insure that a player stay's in the right condition. You should rest players and reduce their training intensity/games before they run into problems that can spill over for months.

Me personally, like others, I believe Wilshere shouldn't be going to the tournament. The only benefit Wilshere will receive at the tournament will be more experience in a tournament environment. It certainly won't make any difference to his technical, tactical or physical levels. One could argue that the level Wilshere is playing regularly at is a lot higher than England U21's. If there was a good player playing for a lower club then it might do him some good to train and play with higher quality players. Wilshere's surpassed the U21 level.

What's the goal here? To develop players or to win tournaments. The idea that winning the U21 tournament will have a big impact on the senior team in the future is ridiculous.

Yes exactly Stuart. Spain built from the very bottom, with the same group of players following a technical syllabus that allows them to play the way they do today. So reversing the developmental pyramid, and taking players from the senior team and playing them in the U21's is not building from the top? Jesus, that man is an idiot.

 

he is PASHONAT barry

 

It appears I misread my stats, Ozil played 61 games in the 2 seasons prior to the Euro 2009 tournament. Wilshere has played a similar number of games in the last 2 seasons so far.

As for Wilshere being a 'starter' for England, he has started a whopping one match. He has not even played an hour of International football for the Senior team. Let's not pretend he has cemented his place in the first choice XI with all players available, cos he hasn't.

As for Pique, I have no problem with Pique being called up for Spanish U-21 if the team needed him. Similarly I have no problem with Micah Richards having excelled in the senior England team, and then later playing in the U-21 games. Richards played for England U-21 this week and he has 12 senior Caps. It is hardly a scandal.

 

Obviously you make allowances if players have had an arduous workload, but you have to treat players individually. You should not rest players if they do not require the rest. That's why top flight pro players are continually assessed to ascertain their fitness levels. If they require rest then rest them. I am not saying that players should be overworked, merely that playing in the U-21 summer tournament would not necessarily overwork Wilshere (or Carroll). Claiming that their participation will result in them being overworked and subsequently injured due to this is simply speculation. Every match runs the risk of injury, every training session too.

What is certain is that participating in an U-21 tournament, helps the mental development and experience of young players and should help them should they ever attend an international tournament at senior level. So you have to weigh the certain benefit that the players will get from attending the tournament, against the slight possibility of a player getting seriously injured due to being overworked.

How many games is the optimal amount to play for a young player? It is clearly different for individuals.

When Messi was Wilshere's age he had played about 75 matches in the 2 seasons before. Was he overworked? Was this detrimental to his development?

When Rooney was Wilshere's age of 19, he had played at least 90 games in total for club and country in that season and the season before. Was he overworked? Was this detrimental to his development? Was Rooney dropped for Euro2004 in case he got 'burnt out'? No he wasn't. And it was a good thing for both Rooney and England too.

Of course there is a risk that a player gets overworked, so you have to assess the situation individually. To state that Wilshere attending the U-21 tournament will be too risky due to burnout is simply not true.