Well I think for Mijatovic his positioning was based predominantly on his international performances (which I might have neglected a little in my rating of him). He scored 7 goals in two games against Hungary in October/November 1997 which probably gave him a big boost. He also scored very important goals earlier in the year against Spain, Czech Republic and Slovakia which were crucial in helping Yugoslavia to qualify for their first major tournament since the civil war. On the red cards I'm not sure I agree really. If you get sent off (particularly early in a game) your value is nil for the remainder. Now if you get sent off making a last ditch tackle to prevent a goal or doing something "constructive" then you can make an argument that it was worthwhile, but Zidane typically got sent off needlessly for acts of petulance. Is there anything else from another publication to put Zidane higher up?
I think you are probably right on Laudrup, this was an excellent season for him. Did you have anything on Figo to make you think he should get 2?
Probably more video based re: Figo (the ones on Youtube) - maybe I saw some of him at the time but not a huge amount I'm sure. I know in terms of average ratings (which I can understand you use to validate ideas about general level where stats aren't making an obvious case) he lost out to Seedorf as recently posted by Puck I think. The Copa Del Rey Final was very good for him, and he was a key player for Portugal. Bobby Robson picks him out among his star players (he did also manage him earlier of course though, and might be influenced by what Figo did later even). Like I said though, just thought I'd mention I'd lean that way without really trying to influence you or being super convinced you should make those amendments.
Re: Beckham his fame. He was by the end of the 1997-98 season one of the best paid players in the world because of his endorsements. Some others in the list (e.g. Roberto Baggio - although he also did well in endorsements deals) were more skewed towards performance bonuses. THE WORLD'S TOP 10 EARNERS (July 1998) Name Earnings 1 Ronaldo pounds 20.5million 2 Denilson pounds 18.75m 3 Rivaldo pounds 17.75m 4 Roberto Carlos pounds 15.85m 5 Alessandro Del Piero pounds 15.25m 6 Dennis Bergkamp pounds 13.75m 7 Roberto Baggio pounds 10.75m 8 George Weah pounds 9.25m 9 David Beckham pounds 8.1m 10 Alan Shearer pounds 7.75m Brian Laudrup was 19th in the world it was said. Something that was also noticeable (to me - seeing some of the brands mentioned) is that the whole Italian sports manufacturers market has gone down the drain over the past 20 years. edit: 1 Ronaldo, Inter Milan, Pounds 20.5m; 2 Denilson, Real Betis, Pounds 18.75m; 3 Rivaldo, Barcelona, Pounds 17.75m; 4 Carlos, Real Madrid, Pounds 15.85m; 5 Del Piero, Juventus, Pounds 15.25m. 6 Bergkamp, Arsenal, Pounds 13.75m; 7 Baggio, Bologna, Pounds 10.75m; 8 Weah, AC Milan, Pounds 9.25m; 9 Beckham, Man United, Pounds 8.1m; 10 Shearer, Newcastle, Pounds 7.75m 11 Maldini, AC Milan, Pounds 6.8m. 12 Klinsmann, Tottenham 97/98, Pounds 5.2m; 13 Ravenelli, Marseilles, Pounds 4.4m; 14 Vialli, Chelsea, Pounds 3.8m; 15 Batistuta, Fiorentina, Pounds 3.25m; 16, Raul, Real Madrid, Pounds 3.15m; 17 Juninho, Athletico Madrid, Pounds 3m; 18 Beirhoff, AC Milan, Pounds 2.85m; 19 Brian Laudrup, Chelsea, Pounds 2.25m; Romario, Flamengo, Pounds 2.25m
Can I ask what the source for some of these is? It looks a bit unlikely to me in many of these cases. I mean in 2000 Alvaro Recoba became, reputeldy at the time, the best paid player in the world (if I recall correctly) and he was on £130k a week gross or roughly £6.5m. Roy Keane was reputedly Britain's best paid player in 1998 on £50k a week so there would have to be some staggering endorsement deals alongside them. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...deal-at-united-good-for-the-game-1131991.html
Here is the full list and original source mentioned http://soccertimes.com/international/1998/jun30.htm I agree that those type of lists are imperfect and have to be approached carefully. Can you show the 1997 or 1998 wages list for Britain?
I'm just trying to find some but quite a few articles I can find show Roy Keane as Britain's best paid player on £50k a week in 1999. McManaman was on fractionally more after his Bosman transfer to Madrid.
I seemed to recall rumours of Robbie Fowler asking for 100k a week around that time, but only found this about him rejecting 35k: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-fowler-rejects-pounds-35000-a-week-1045575.html Beckham was signed up with Brylcreem by the start of 97/98 I think. Maybe Umbro for Shearer? Reebok for Giggs I remember (not on the list though) but maybe nothing for Keane in that respect? Reebok for Bergkamp too actually I think, but maybe his bonuses were very good too (plus Dutch sponsors? - I think the 'Dennis Beer' of Euro 200 fame was fan-named though! a bit like Juninho burgers at Middlesbrough).
Adidas for Beckham too of course. Hummel for Brian Laudrup I think, but I guess Rangers did pay him very well.
Roy Keane made apparently that 50k a week deal in December 1999. 'The Sun' reported this per June 1998: (in the same article they mention an pending upgrade of Beckham to 25-27k and Owen to 20k - but I didn't search further whether that materialized) 'The Times' also had August 1998 an article with as title "Most expensive runners-up ever - Chelsea". Who had to pay an awful lot even without performance bonuses. Not saying that above wages list is fully correct and beyond debate but it does seem as if Chelsea had together with Manchester United the most expensive team (around that time). edit: Brian Laudrup also went on a Bosman to Chelsea and there are other articles mentioning him at 50k. Also a couple who have him at 35k.
Oh, sorry, yeah, maybe Brian Laudrup's Rangers wages had nothing to do with it if those are projected figures for the season ahead. With no transfer fee involved Chelsea maybe thought they could make him a big offer in terms of wages then (like with McManaman, and probably Ibrahimovic now for example).
World Class Ranking 1. Ronaldo 2. Rivaldo 3. Thuram 4. Mancini 5. Roberto Carlos 6. Kohler 7. Peruzzi 8. Raul 9. Djorkaeff 10. Hierro 11. Pagliuca 12. Seedorf 13. Deschamps 14. Zola I'm still thinking about some of the other potential inclusions.
Sorry, I agree with Estel that this is perhaps a bit dismissive to some people. With the exception of Seedorf this are all players from the usual suspects (Brazil, Italy etc.). Seedorf was 17th in the 1997 Ballon d'Or and 31th in the FIFA award (no surprise there... think of 1995 and 2010 here too, typical FIFA). With Schmeichel, Mijatovic, Suker etc. filtered out. I'd also take Zola over Mancini despite Mancini scoring a few more goals. Mancini didn't play for the national team after 1994! Wasn't Rivaldo more like a forward? In his approach he was a forward (= selfish, relatively few assists) while other so called forwards had the mentality of a midfielder (= many assists, pre-assists). Lately I was also thinking, thanks to the 2000 - 2010 exercise, whether Berbatov might've been one of the most underrated players in recent history (he's in that Finkelstein list for example) - but that as an aside.
Sorry, I don't quite follow you here. I am dismissing those players or some others or someone else (Estel?)? I think he was a midfielder and then moved to become a forward later on at Barcelona. But just my view. A personal favourite but needed the right team around him to excel. Certainly a lovely player though.
Yes sorry, I overlooked this. I meant indeed that you (but also others) overlook aforementioned players. Zidane who was 3rd and 3rd in EPotY + FIFA; Schmeichel who was 8th EPotY and 10th FIFA; Bergkamp who was 4th EPotY and 3rd FIFA (same points as Zidane). Then also a few others as Mijatovic (2nd and 18th), Suker (nominated + 7th in FIFA) indeed. I don't think the calls are bizarre but the result is however - as I said as a byline above - that the '2nd tier' countries are filtered out (is France fully first tier?). That being said, rather than this year or season I have stronger feelings about where some might be for their timeframe: Zidane is the best in his position and an outside chance for being best overall for 1995 - 2005; Schmeichel has a good case for being best in his position for 1990 - 2000 (the imaginary 'pole position' I'd say); Bergkamp has an argument for being best in his position/role for 1990 - 2000 (one of the fastest, if not the fastest, to go to 10-20-30-40 assists in the EPL and it were generally not 'easy' ones). Beckham has oddly much, much higher rankings in later years (19th-21th EPotY and 53th-55th FIFA in this year). Which is probably an incorrect difference like you said previously.
In fairness I did include Seedorf, Djorkaeff, Deschamps, Thuram from France and Netherlands. I also included a number of those before and will do again. Also my initial thoughts were to include Zidane, because he was one of my favourites in this time in particular, but if you look at his ratings and also the thread from BugsBunny I was in some doubt. If you look at them in detail, I've already looked at Mijatovic being helped significantly by goals in 1997/8, Bergkamp also got a huge boost then. He scored 10 goals in Arsenal's first 10 league games of the season, including that ridiculously good hat-trick at Leicester. If we are just looking at calendar year then I can understand him being placed so highly. I'm not sure quite why Zidane got such a high rating in 1997. Maybe it was entirely on merit, maybe there were other factors.
Maybe it are the Champions League games at the beginning of the 1997-98 season, next to the 'big games' your excerpt mentions. Against Manchester United a 5 and 7 respectively. http://www.archiviolastampa.it/comp...,26/articleid,0623_01_1997_0339_0050_8556149/ http://www.archiviolastampa.it/comp...,27/articleid,0614_01_1997_0271_0033_8393038/ I also remember him against Feyenoord, although in the other match he was invisible (Feyenoord won 2-0). I don't think the national team games were a factor, unlike the position of his team mate ADP (for a failing Italy team at TdF). He also played against Netherlands by the way. In 2005 he was in this public poll 'player of the decade'. http://www.espnfc.com/story/337789/player-of-the-decade (I strongly disagree with the #2 in this poll, he should be way way down) Yes I'm aware of Zidane's average grades by three publications (Guerin, Gazzetta, Stampa) - that's also why I brought up some of the other names who did better despite not always selected for Ideal XIs. I think in some ways Schmeichel (for ex.) got delayed recognition, understood his style and contribution better in the final two years.
I think this is a very good summary from BugsBunny: http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/zinedine-zidane-review-1996-2006.2006080/page-5#post-31421895 In it Zidane clearly was better in Europe than in the league but he only got 4 stars in La Stampa's ratings overall, behind Peruzzi, Deschamps, Vieri, Montero and Ferrara. I really am torn on this one. Maybe he is deserving of 3 stars. I do need to give Vieri a star at least though.
I thought about posting this game anyway comme as a good example for Figo in an earlier round of the Copa Del Rey: But I notice now a comment below it too.... "Back in those years Figo was the second best player in the world, the best one was Ronaldo" Of course we don't know how informed the comment is (or if it comes from a Barca fan who'd be more familiar than others generally but more biased potentially too even if the Figo Judas effect might have taken that away you'd think!), and Figo played one year only with Ronaldo but the idea could stretch into 97/98 and perhaps 95/96 even (when the best player might be considered to be Ronaldo feasibly maybe). I know also you're not just looking at the maximum potential of a player at a given time (although the comment suggests perhaps a performance based analysis rather than just skills based). His Ballon d'Or results don't reflect it at that time I know, and to an extent also not his Don Balon average ratings although Copa Del Rey would not be factored into those which is maybe why giving that consideration helps his cause too.
In case others hadn't noticed here is a good one for Rivaldo vs the same opposition too: Maybe not quite as good but similar in style and effect compared to a season later with Barca (Rivaldo at his best IMO): Atletico were defending champions in 96/97 of course, and also fairly brutal judging by some fouls on Figo!
Apologies, had somehow missed your reply earlier. That's possible, but Mijatovic also played a good foil to Suker for Real Madrid, scoring 14 goals and helping secure the La Liga title. That must have played a decent part too in his high placement. Well, among the two red cards that season, one was indeed for petulance but the other was actually a tactical foul (nos. 3 & 4). My point was though that when looking at average ratings to determine the overall consistency and level of play of a player over a season, such red cards bring a completely unrelated yet highly influential aspect to the table. This is since from purely a footballing perspective, a player might have been having a great game till he gets that red, and it would still completely overwhelm not only that game's performance, but the entire season's worth as well, due to the nature of averaging. I had already mentioned his Balon d'Or standing, Serie A Foreign player of the year award and ESM monthly appearances (while also mentioning his impressive CL stats). In addition to the above (post a quick search) there were the below, - World Soccer had Zidane at joint 7th in their world player of the year poll alongside Djorkaeff. http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/wsoc97.html - While it seems, RSSSF also had polls of their own for world player of the year, and in those Zidane was rated very highly and placed at 2nd place, in their player of the year poll for 1997. http://www.rsssf.com/rssbest/rsspoy97.html There might be more (since I am sure there are a couple of other publications who give out player of the year awards), but I think these above in addition to the ones shared earlier are enough to showcase the substance behind my opinion. Considering that you have given Zidane a ** rating, it means he is effectively placed below 14 other players at the least (all *** players as revealed by a quick count) as per your rating for 1996/97. That seems a bit harsh considering the above list of his placements. The consistency argument is also IMO a bit inconsistently applied, since this facet is not scrutinised in equal depth for every player on the list.
Went through the rest of the thread and saw this. A word of caution, since what BugsBunny did was still only a retroactive exercise, while it would be a good point of reference, it may not be as good an end point to look at the factual worth of Zidane in the larger scheme of things. Since while BugsBunny did mention a set of publications/observers which had their reservations about Zidane, there was definitely another set not mentioned, which voted favourably for him (including those from within Italy which allowed him to pick up the Foreign player of the year award and those from outside which made him a contender for the Balon d'Or). Also, agree that Vieri should indeed get a *.
After Ronaldo, Figo was the best player of Barcelona ... when Ronaldo didn't appear, Figo always did as an example the first spanish classic of Ronaldo when Figo was the best of his team. I think Figo deserved ** at least.
Yeah, I think I was reading something about that game a few weeks ago (if he won a penalty - obviously I could check Youtube and see, or at least see if a penalty was scored!). Ronaldo didn't even play in the Copa Del Rey Final of course. Good to get input from someone a bit more informed than me though, thanks.
L'équipe type de la D1 1996-1997 par France Football (basé sur les étoiles) : --------------------------------Revault------------------- ----------------------------(Le Havre, 3,92)-------------- ---Séb. Perez -----Jozwiak----Kastendeuch----E. Petit--- ----(Bastia, 3,52)---(EAG, 3,68)-(Metz, 3,52)---(Monaco, 3,58) ----------Ba-----------------S. Ziani------------Pirès-------- (Bordeaux, 3,70)-----(Bordeaux, 3,58)----(Metz, 3,56)--- -------------------Benarbia------------N'Doram----------------- ----------------(Monaco, 3,8)-------(Nantes, 3,76)----------- --------------------------S. Anderson------------------------ ---------------------------(Monaco, 3,70)--------------------- Joueurs suivant au classement : Saïb (M Auxerre, 3,54), Ferri (MD Nantes, 3,54), Domoraud (DC Bordeaux, 3,51), Gourvennec (MO Nantes, 3,51), Ismaël (DC Strasbourg 3,51), Guivarc'h (AC, Rennes, 3,5), Dhorasoo (M/MO Le Havre 3,48), Rai (10 PSG, 3,48), Collet (M Strasbourg, 3,48), Serredszum (M Metz, 3,46), Carotti (DM/ D Nantes, 3,46), Bertin (LIB/ M, 3,44), Duncker (Lille M, 3,44), N'Gotty (DC PSG, 3,43), Carnot (M/ MO Guingamp, 3,42), Koot (DC Cannes, 3,41), Deplace (M Lyon, 3,41), Makelele (M Nantes 3,41), Pavon (M Bordeaux 3,4), Michel (M Guingamp, 3,4), Rabesandratana (DC/ DM Nancy, 3,38), Danjou (DC/ LIB Auxerre 3,37), Cavéglia (A Lyon 3,37), Dumas (LIB Monaco 3,37), Huysman (M Le Havre 3,36), Micoud (M/ 10 Bordeaux 3,35), Mihali (D Guingamp 3,35), Gava (MG Lyon 3,35), Goma (D Auxerre 3,34), Eydelie (M/ D Bastia3,34), Legwinski (M Monaco 3,34), Garcion (A/ MO Lille 3,33), Fischer (D Nancy, 3,33), Blanchard (M Metz, 3,32), Gralak (DC Bordeaux 3,31), Cauet (M PSG 3,3), Diomède (Ail g, Auxerre 3,29), Wiltord (A Rennes, 3,29), Gaillot (D Metz 3,28), Song (D Metz 3,28), Rouvière (M Montpellier 3,28), Loko (A PSG 3,28) = top 49. Moreau (DC Bastia, 3,27), Swierczewski (M Bastia 3,27) = top 53. Classement des gardiens à la moyenne : 1. Revault (Le Havre), 3,92 2. Landreau (Nantes), 3,79 3. Wimbée (Nancy), 3,75 4. Letizi (Metz), 3,69 5. Bodart (Bordeaux), 3,65 6. Charbonnier (Auxerre), 3,61 7. Aubry (Lille), 3,53 8. Köpke (Marseille), 3,51 9. Lemasson (Cannes), 3,45 10. Martini (Montpellier), 3,44 11. Vencel (Strasbourg), 3,40 11. Barthez (Monaco), 3,36 13. Lama (PSG), 3,28 14. Valencony (Nice), 3,27 15. Piveteau (Bastia), 3,26 Classement des passeurs selon FF : 1. Gava (Lyon) avec 13 passes décisives. 2. Diomède (Auxerre), Ba (Bordeaux), Cocard (Lyon) Benarbia (Monaco), Gourvennec (Nantes) 8. 7. Moravcik (Bastia), Anderson (Monaco), 7. 9. Pirès (Metz), Ikpeba (Monaco), Makelele (Nantes), Leonardo, Rai (PSG), Raschke (Strasbourg), 6. 15. Micoud, Papin, Ziani (Bordeaux), Robert (Montpellier), 5. 19. Laslandes (Auxerre), Laurent, Vandecasteele (Bastia), Lewandowski (Caen), Dhorasoo (Le Havre), Vairelles (Lens), Becanovic (Lille), Deplace (Lyon), Pedros (Marseille), Henry (Monaco), N'Doram (Nantes), Dely Valdes (PSG), Mahé (Rennes), Baticle, Ismaël (Strasbourg), 4. Etc. Note : For this one I started to type in French, well. The text (on blog) is about comments/ a little of additional info that I add (not copied from the mag) and in gross it's about that : Nantes settled the second best record of invincibility over a season behind their own record of 1994-1995 (wich stays still today). The team was "in rebuilt" and the month of August was not good. They're beaten by Monaco in the last day match though (2-1 at Monaco, end of the streak and good conclusion for Monaco). Landreau, the keeper of Nantes, 17 years old, was the revelation of the season. Also, otherwise, Maurice of Lyon was injured most of the season (came back in the end) but it did not prevent Gava to be the best assister. Maurice then moved to PSG and also missed his chance to play at the World Cup when he was a big hope in '96 and still tried in NT in '97, then 2 or 3 times again post World Cup but that's another question surely regarding this thread). OL beat OM 8-0 in the last day match. Gava has perhaps 1 assist in this game or 0, difficult to see due to the poor video quality) He went to PSG too, joint with Maurice. oh, and for the little story, Letchkov (OM) has 3 assists... he was no good at all anyway. Also i nthe XI, the midfield is settled to put forward the best rated players but they're all offensive midfielders of more or less the same type... Pirès was most of the time associated with 1 striker and sometimes a bit deeper but he was no way a midfielder, more a forward. Or in between sometimes. N'Doram was more striker than ever this season too. Petit played either DM or LB, perhaps LM a few times (not impossible) or CB a few times (not impossible) but mainly DM or LB.