.. Messi vs Colombia 2018 WC qualifiers. His best at international level under huge pressure and against quality team.. and imo gets pretty close to any of his finest performances in Barcelona.
Good idea to think about this dimension too, but I disagree about the picked match. Just look at which clubs the Colombian players play. It is no comparison. Also, their defense was crap and three of them haven't been called up since (with positive effects for Colombia). In an actual tournament (and Colombia benefits from expanded qualifying too) with up to strength defense like 2015, there was not such impact. My pick would be vs Spain in 2010. Even if it was a friendly, but played in a fairly competitive spirit. This was a true team.
There is no easy match and bad defense in South America these days. If anything those matches are the most 80s like type of matches Maradona often endured in his time, because South Americans play with an extra passion and aggression. And i am quite against generalizing teams by players they had or had not that game because it is possible that 11 anonymous manage to play, tactically, a perfect game and that world class teams have a bad day at the office and make rookie mistakes. (You have to watch an actual match to feel the dynamics and quality. Personaly, i haven't noticed any particulary huge weakness in their defense) By that logic why this thread even exists? To list all the most significant games in great players' career? R9 scored two goals in world cup final so it must be a great performance, no it's not, far from that (just an example). I am not interested in those games but truely their best performances and Messi did it all that game vs defensive minded Colombia side and considering the context of the match and Messi's international career at that point, performances gets an additional value. I've seen the game and showcase of his abilities in that game was at very best of his international career. The context makes it even better. And if i had to make a point that Messi is great in Argentina as well as in Barca, i would let him watch that game.
I think Tigana vs Portugal in Euro 84 can be a good option. Whether in actuality it was his best or among his best as a performance over 90 minutes I'd not really know though. Maybe that French Cup semi-final In 1986 where he has an early quality assist would be worth watching in full (I didn't do that yet, and can't recall actually whether it's extended highlights or full game on Youtube). Maybe that England 1984 one is a good one for Giresse even, but I could be thinking too much of the nice assist for Platini. Redondo vs Valencia in the 2000 CL Final is another one for him I'd say. I actually felt Vieira, strange as it may seem (with team-mate Bergkamp also shining and the team losing with a comfortable ish scoreline), had a really good game vs Barcelona in 99/00.
This is typically a strawman you create. Condensing someone's else idea to just one consideration. Anyway, I strongly disagree with most aspects you say above but with these strawmen and agression there is no need to reply. My pick would be vs Spain 2010. Of course opposition matters. See a Lee Trundle or various magicians in the Egyptian/African context on YouTube (as has been discussed a few times, how to assess skill and ability).
Let's try and match some of the best games against the players. These were those in peter's list from the TV era: 1950-69: 20 players (average 10 per decade) –Di Stefano, Didi, Garrincha, Djalma Santos, Nilton Santos, Pele, Schiaffino, Spencer, Eusebio, Facchetti, Rivera, Gento, Suarez, Kopa, Bozsic, Yashin, Djajic, Best, Charlton, Moore 1970-89: 20 players (average 10 per decade) –Maradona. Passarella, Rivelino, Zico, Falcao, Chumpitaz, Cubillas, Figueroa, Beckenbauer, Muller, Maier, Breitner, Rummenigge, Cruyff, van Hanegem, Krol, van Basten, Scirea, Zoff, Platini 1990-2009: 20 players (average 10 per decade) – Romario, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Roberto Carlos, Kahn, Matthaus, Baresi, Maldini, Baggio, Buffon, Zidane, Henry, Thuram, Figo, Gullit, Rijkaard, Bergkamp, Nedved, Michael Laudrup, Weah 2010-17: 8 players (average 10 per decade) –Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Lahm, Neuer, Xavi, Iniesta, Lewandowski, Modric
@Gregoriak Any thoughts on the best games of Beckenbauer, Muller, Maier, Breitner or Rummenigge? Or any of the others for that matter?
As I said (somewhat enthusiastically) in the other thread, he is a hard one to link because very few games of his prime have surfaced. "What doesn't help either is a lack of surfaced games from his prime (mostly the 1974 World Cup). He played in the pre-VCR era. This affects many of the legends of the smaller countries (even JC14, but also Cubillas, Florian Albert). For guys from the bigger countries, with more fans and more people interested in past legends, markedly more full games or long highlights have surfaced. Also of the notable European Cup encounters and so." But a good one to see his potential and trajectory is the match at the age of 19 against the Soviet Union (against Italy too, but they flopped massively in this tournament and had a 'weak' attack). He is very calm and composed at this age, almost flawless, and shows ability on the ball (maybe not among the very, very best sweepers in history but very, very good). As his fans say with some merit, he looks markedly more 'intelligent' and calm here than tournament icons as Charlton, Coluna, Overath, Beckenbauer (against the same opponent, if applicable), but arguably the center back position is more conducive to look as composed, calm etc. than in the midfield as a two-way player and some of the other tasks/roles. These selected highlights, but the full match is advisable of course to see how 'flawless' he was, are all from the World Cups.
That's what you have said dude. I will quote you: You tell me that's not closed minded approach? To that point Colombia was beaten twice in WC qualifiers by Brazil and Argentina by only one goal margin (2-1,1-0), then Messi came and did that to them. Here is a video: Tell me at which point Messi benifited from that "no-comparison" defense (which btw, is Murillo (former Inter player, current Valencia defender. Also imo should have been in 2015 Copa America dream team (by whoscored rated as a 5th best player in whole Copa (7.63). Sanchez (current first team Tottenham defender), Balanta (Basel defender, former River Plate first team defender), etc..) 1st goal is Messi's pinpoint accurate free kick that no keeper in the world would save. Also free kick came after Messi did la croqueta to a Colombian player so he gets full credit for that one, it was perfection. 2nd goal came after Messi's perfect delivery and at the moment he crossed that ball, there were 7 Colombians in front of him, it's just that delivery was too good, even that good for a striker like Pratto to score. 3rd goal, Messi initiated dangerous situation with wonderful backheel move that his teammates, as per usual, fuked up, then he made a sprint, took away ball from defender and set Di Maria up for a tap in. Tell me where do you see obvious lack of tactical awerness in Colombia's defense? Other than that last mistake, which Messi with his work rate exploited, no mistakes have been done. On top of all that he was doing things like this as well: Notice how many times he was pulled and kicked in that run. He was truely out of this world that game. Well guess i am spaming another thread again so i will stop, but i am strongly against that type of analysis. Like who has been playing that game, how that resulted in overal view, etc. I am more like: Here are your highlights, and if you know something about an actual football, show me which particular situation proves your point. Everything else is rambling, just like things the other guy was talking in the case of Zico on how many goals he scored in the games against South Americans that started at 11 pm and how many goals he scored in the games against Europeans that started at 8:30 pm. Those are dead arguments and just an insinuations that might be right, but not necessarly.
Which I will happily do if it is asked with an open mind. Then I will also show why vs Spain in 2010 was better. Managers are actually paid to assess players and ditch them when necessary (with good effects).
The point is not whether Spain performance is better, the point is that the way you belittled his performance vs Colombia makes no sense. And that second part of text would make sense only under the premises that all managers are perfect and they do the right thing and all success comes down to their decision rather than luck at some points, which obviously are not the case. They were competitive even before that lose and "change of team" and then they stumbled upon Messi. Any potential argument that they concede less or more can be down to not only defense but change of system and everything. That logic is the same thing as: Team A 2-0 Team B Team C 2-0 Team A so Team C > Team B It seems as a valid logic, but it's not, because in football it all comes down to 90 minutes played that day, not before that or after. It's far more complicated than just extracting some logic from pile of information found. I am talking about individual peformance, going play by play seeing what Messi had encountered and how well he did react to those situation(in some games he might encouter more difficult situations despite playing vs inferior team, the best example is this very last game vs Girona. The point is that you have to take that into account) how inspired was he in that game. That defines performance, not how good defense and defenders are in theory and their clubs and what stats he accomplished at the end of the game. That's shallow analysis and any fairly inteligent person who doesn't know shit about football, could come up with those. That tells you how well that logic works.
Well, he (and CR7 for that matter) have shined against better teams with better players and better drilled (who see each other every day, or a full month before a tournament starts). That is not the question. It absolutely makes sense to 'belittle', relative to the 2010 Spain game; a drilled team; the world champions andsoforth. In the 2010 Spain game there is a fantastic run where the Spanish defense is aware of where the opposition is, and they track it superbly, but the dribble and pass is just too good (they know where Di Maria is, they defend it fantastic, but pass is too good). And there are other things like that Spain makes it difficult to start a dribble. The first goal goal against Colombia was an error to give away a free kick at that position, and collect a yellow card too. It was unnecessary, even if e.g. Di Maria would take it (I don't belittle the quality and execution of the free kick, but it is a fact that the GK is the reserve goalkeeper of Arsenal and his reach and reaction speed is not the best). The second goal was a defensive error too (which can be explained, rather than the classic "you know nothing about football" phrase). The third goal is obviously an error, like Colombia has done so often. Can an Italy, a Germany, Spain also make such mistakes? Yes, they can. They can also succumb under the speed. They also might not, or not as frequent (because Messi takes too much workload, too much metres to track - maybe something like that). But this is exactly the point of the Lee Trundle argument, and there is that Spain 2010 game to waive with. Yes they were. But Colombia also conceded three goals against Costa Rica, one against Haiti, two against Bolivia, one against Kuwait etc. in close wins (not to mention leaking goals against Uruguay, against Brazil/Neymar). Let's not kid ourselves about the level of the defense. They haven't won any of their qualifying games against Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Chile and conceded 13 goals on top (13 goals conceded in 8 games). Furthermore, contrary to popular wisdom, Pekerman is not an idiot and when he drops three defensive players for subsequent games, not even called up (with positive effect!), I do take it serious. Needless to say, Spain in 2010 was a proven unit. Both matches - 2010 Spain, 2016 Colombia - were home games so that cancels each other out and can be left out of the equation (and we know that this is at many levels an advantage - see what Grondona did in the 1986 and 1994 qualifiers). Anyway, I'll leave it at this otherwise the thread goes astray. It is fine to see things different.
For Schiaffino for example I think it has to be pretty difficult to get a good idea (and moreso to be able to review his whole performance or the full game of course) but I think he was praised for these Uruguay games in the 1954 World Cup: - Scotland (Tommy Docherty made some glowing comments about him I think; I'm not sure he had a lot of involvement in the actual goals IIRC though and may have ben playing quite deep?) - Hungary (actually some highlights did appear for this famous match - clips of key moments, chances etc - it can be seen that he is doing well to an extent maybe, assuming he is identified correctly on each clip but anyway I think he was praised and made at least one assist IIRC) For AC Milan, going purely with the important/big game and important/big contribution scenario (and impressive goals/assists at that quality wise as can be seen on Youtube) maybe these: - Juventus (h) 1955/56 - Manchester United (h) 1957/58 - European Cup (There seem to be some positive comments for the latter but hard to find something really definitive or descriptive about his overall performance and impact in the game - it is easier to find general comments like from Cesare Maldini - saying he had a radar for a brain etc, talking about his exceptional game vision).
Oooops, wrong place... Through OPTA on twitter one might also find some games and gems from a stats perspective. For example. 1 - Johan Cruyff's performance against Sweden in 1974 World Cup. Operation. pic.twitter.com/0hqNFHEvIR — OptaCan (@OptaCan) June 19, 2017 23 - On this day in 1974, Johan Cruyff won 23 personal duels vs Sweden, a joint-record in WC history (1966-now) with Pele & Maradona. Show. https://t.co/yZ76dfbaQu — OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) June 19, 2017 To be honest: this is one where I didn't make my mind on. On the one hand Sweden wasn't the very best, on the other hand Sweden had actually a higher Elo ranking/rating entering the match, and after the match, and Sweden finished the tournament ranked eighth. France Football gave a 6/6 in part because they believed JC14 was the difference maker at several dimensions. In terms of footwork and fitness this was better than later on in the tournament, yes. Later in the year he beat Ronnie Hellstrom with a fine goal. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x42twsv At 32:10 This somehow backs up the idea it wasn't a one-off 'lucky shot' performance, or viewed differently, that Sweden wasn't the very best. OK, maybe I am too critical (Figueroa etc.) albeit enthusiastic.
Yeah, interesting to see. Which Pele and Maradona games were equal for the 'personal duels' won? Could even be Pele vs Bulgaria in 1966? Funny that all 3 had the same amount! I think Cruyff could easily have had multiple assists vs Sweden and I think maybe in the end I felt I'd give that performance the edge on the Bulgaria one.
For clarity, it is defined as this: "Duels A duel is an 50-50 contest between two players of opposing sides in the match. For every Duel Won there is a corresponding Duel Lost depending on the outcome of the Duel." Yes, Pelé is definitely the Bulgaria 1966 game. Maradona at the same age (even same month) is either the South Korea game or England game in 1986 - by method of finding and ruling out the other matches. Note: his handball is also (correctly!) counted as a duel won. It is 'logical' to think it is the South Korea match, but England is also possible because 1) made 0 fouls as only opponent (officially, on paper), 2) defender Fenwick was among the players who lost the most duels in the entire World Cup (three yellow cards in 4 matches as well, backing this up). In his defense though, England missed the attuned Robson-Wilkins pair ahead of him.
as a Riquelme fan, below are the list of his best games in chronological order (its not easy to determine his best) (total +- 29 matches) : 1997, (19 years old JRR), World Cup U-20 Final, vs Uruguay; 1999, (21 years old JRR), Friendly, vs Barcelona, @ away; 2000, (22 years old JRR), Libertadores Quarter Final, vs River Plate, @ home; 2000, (22 years old JRR), Intercontinental, vs Real Madrid; 2001, (23 years old JRR), Libertadores Quarter Final, vs Vasco da Gama, @ home; 2001, (23 years old JRR), Libertadores Semi Final, vs Palmeiras, @ away; 2002, (24 years old JRR), Primera League, vs Indepediente, @ home; 2003, (25 years old JRR), Champions League 2nd Group Stage, vs Newcastle, @ away; 2004, (26 years old JRR), La Liga, vs Valencia, @ home; 2005, (27 years old JRR), La Liga, vs Barcelona, @ home; 2005, (27 years old JRR), Friendly, vs England; 2005, (27 years old JRR), World Cup Qualifying, vs Brazil, @ home; 2006, (28 years old JRR), La Liga, vs Alaves, @ home; 2006, (28 years old JRR), La Liga, vs Real Madrid, @ away; 2006, (28 years old JRR), Champions League Quarter Final, vs Inter Milan, @ home; 2007, (29 years old JRR), Libertadores Final, vs Gremio, @ home; 2007, (29 years old JRR), Libertadores Final, vs Gremio, @ away; 2007, (29 years old JRR), Copa America Final, vs Brazil; 2007, (29 years old JRR), World Cup Qualifying, vs Chile, @ home; 2008, (30 years old JRR), Libertadores Quarter Final, vs Fluminense, @ home; 2008, (30 years old JRR), Olympic Semi Final, vs Brazil; 2008, (30 years old JRR), Olympic Final, vs Nigeria; 2011, (33 years old JRR), Friendly, vs Arsenal, @ away; 2011, (33 years old JRR), Primera League, vs Estudientes, @ home; 2011, (33 years old JRR), Primera League, vs San Lorenzo, @ home; 2012, (34 years old JRR), Libertadores Round 16, vs Union Espanola, @ home; 2012, (34 years old JRR), Libertadores Round 16, vs Union Espanola, @ away; 2013, (35 years old JRR), Libertadores Round 16, vs Corinthians, @ away; 2014, (36 years old JRR), Primera League, vs River Plate, @ home;
revised: 1997, (19 years old JRR), World Cup U-20 Final, vs Uruguay; 1999, (21 years old JRR), Friendly, vs Barcelona, @ away; 2000, (22 years old JRR), Libertadores Quarter Final, vs River Plate, @ home; 2000, (22 years old JRR), Intercontinental, vs Real Madrid; 2001, (23 years old JRR), Libertadores Quarter Final, vs Vasco da Gama, @ home; 2001, (23 years old JRR), Libertadores Semi Final, vs Palmeiras, @ away; 2001, (23 years old JRR), Intercontinental, vs Bayern Munich; 2002, (24 years old JRR), Primera League, vs Indepediente, @ home; 2003, (25 years old JRR), Champions League 2nd Group Stage, vs Newcastle, @ away; 2004, (26 years old JRR), La Liga, vs Valencia, @ home; 2005, (27 years old JRR), La Liga, vs Barcelona, @ home; 2005, (27 years old JRR), Friendly, vs England; 2005, (27 years old JRR), World Cup Qualifying, vs Brazil, @ home; 2006, (28 years old JRR), La Liga, vs Alaves, @ home; 2006, (28 years old JRR), La Liga, vs Real Madrid, @ away; 2006, (28 years old JRR), Champions League Round 16, vs Glasgow Rangers, @ away; 2006, (28 years old JRR), Champions League Quarter Final, vs Inter Milan, @ home; 2006, (28 years old JRR), World Cup Group Stage, vs Ivory Coast; 2006, (28 years old JRR), World Cup Group Stage, vs Serbia & Montenegro; 2007, (29 years old JRR), Libertadores Final, vs Gremio, @ home; 2007, (29 years old JRR), Libertadores Final, vs Gremio, @ away; 2007, (29 years old JRR), Copa America Group Stage, vs Colombia; 2007, (29 years old JRR), Copa America Quarter Final, vs Peru; 2007, (29 years old JRR), Copa America Semi Final, vs Mexico; 2007, (29 years old JRR), Copa America Final, vs Brazil; 2007, (29 years old JRR), World Cup Qualifying, vs Chile, @ home; 2008, (30 years old JRR), Libertadores Quarter Final, vs Fluminense, @ home; 2008, (30 years old JRR), Olympic Semi Final, vs Brazil; 2008, (30 years old JRR), Olympic Final, vs Nigeria; 2011, (33 years old JRR), Friendly, vs Arsenal, @ away; 2011, (33 years old JRR), Primera League, vs Estudientes, @ home; 2011, (33 years old JRR), Primera League, vs San Lorenzo, @ home; 2012, (34 years old JRR), Libertadores Round 16, vs Union Espanola, @ home; 2012, (34 years old JRR), Libertadores Round 16, vs Union Espanola, @ away; 2013, (35 years old JRR), Libertadores Round 16, vs Corinthians, @ away; 2014, (36 years old JRR), Primera League, vs River Plate, @ home;
Dzajic is one where quite a few games are available, relative to his status and era. At tournament level standing out is the 1968 match against England (in involvement/touches not the best, in effect quite good), and the 1976 match against West Germany in the first half, against Vogts (albeit a slightly ageing one). Also the third place match, with a great free kick, whatever status might be given to that. But some more have surfaced, friendlies against Brazil, Italy, West Germany (where he scored a goal) and so on. Where was he at his best? A great opportunity to see him at work would have been the 1973 European match against Liverpool, but unfortunately he didn't play in this one. Did not play all season.
If someone is mysterious about why modern day midfield players as Modric, De Bruyne, Xabi Alonso admired him, this Sweden match is a good demonstration. Also excellent is the 1975 European Cup against joint favorites Feyenoord. For being a dynamic forward who scored roughly 1 goal per game against top 10 opponents, the Nuremberg match is a good start. For Rivera the 1963 and 1969 EC finals stand out, as well as the 1970 World Cup semi final (although not representative for his playing style)
Goalkeeper Kasey Keller USA vs Brazil Gold Cup 1998 After his performance Romario would say it was the best performance of a goalkeeper he had ever faced.
This would require a bit of research. Of the top of my hat I remember reading reports regarding Breitner - the full back - having one of his best games in a 1974 5-0 Bundesliga away victory of Bayern in Hamburg. A similar game was a 4-1 Bayern away victory in spring 1972 in Stuttgart with regards to Beckenbauer. Gerd Müller of course is measured by the number of goals he scored and one of his best performances overall from memory might have been in Bayern's 6-2 vs. Hamburg in 1976-77 (his goals are to be seen below). There are plenty of other games though. For both Beckenbauer and Müller a 3-1 away victory against Dortmund from early 1970 springs to mind.
So I watched 70 minutes of his semi final game in 1999 in the Champions League (before the match of today), and this is indeed not his best despite the goals. The pitch doesn't help to be fair, just as the archaic playing tactics. He benefited from (big) defensive mistakes (mistimed interceptions), especially Babbel and Matthaus. Better are some of his group stage games, albeit against more open ('modern') opponents. You posted this one as advise to see And this To some extent he was ahead of his time, a little bit. Good and effective with his left foot as well while dribbling.