The best games of the best players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    This is the match for which Tahamata (b. 1955) received a 10/10 - admittedly, the nutmeg assist is fabulous.



    He's discussed in more detail in this thread (since most of his best play took place in the Belgian league, which was consistently top 5 in the coefficients - he played in European finals and supercups too):
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/belgian-golden-shoe-soulier-dor-1954-2010.1853033/page-3


    Everyone knows about Jan Peters (b. 1954) his two goals against England in 1977, but this was also a fine 'competitive' goal against the country he would later play well in (in three of his four Serie A seasons he has a DBScalcio grade above 6.5 which is good):





    Both not real 'legends' ('Voetbal International' left him out of the top 50 and I agree) but good to very good footballers over a number of years if healthy. Jan Peters came back from a knee injury for the 1978 World Cup, but was fully healthy by april (and didn't want to go anyway, he refused to go). Euro 1980 was also missed with an injury. For Tahamata it was a mixture of things: also that he played abroad and back then there wasn't an international calendar yet. Like many Danish players, or Arie Haan at Anderlecht (or players at Ajax...), the clubs refused to release him and he moved out of the picture.

    Both also born in the 'wrong' generation, the gap between the late 1970s and mid 1980s though as mentioned before, the world wide Elo ranking actually never dropped below 14th/15th. That's what you get with relatively tough qualification groups.

    There was also another 'Jan Peters' ("the Peters of Feyenoord") and there was once a national team match (maybe a few more?) where both played on the same pitch.

    Just as information and perspective... I don't think they are 'legends'.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #527 PuckVanHeel, Sep 20, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
    I've now watched it myself, the full match, and with the context factored in I can certainly think of a 9 but a 10 is really too much, but that's subjective of course.

    I don't think Baggio was involved enough, influential enough, accurate enough with his actions to merit a 10. Buffon actually doesn't look good at the free kick, to be honest (happens to the best of them).




    Interestingly, I discovered just a month earlier (April 2000) Gazzetta wondered why they have never given a 10 for performances. Then a month later they suddenly gave one? They're arguably the best (least worst) around but this is peculiar, so to say.

    Has Gazzetta ever given a 10?
    http://archiviostorico.gazzetta.it/2000/aprile/08/gazzetta_mai_dato_pagella__sw_0_000408878.shtml


    Platini never got above a 8.5 in the league apparently while having the highest ever average over a single season (four links below, google translate):
    http://archiviostorico.gazzetta.it/2010/novembre/02/Eto_per_ora_meglio_Platini_ga_10_101102054.shtml
    https://football-ratings.blogspot.com/2014/05/serie-top-rated-players-1981-2014.html
    https://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/13-1...-pagella-re-ultimi-20-anni-201355662200.shtml
    http://www.calciomio.fr/archive/tot...-notes-de-la-gazzetta-dello-sport_217342.html

    Juventus was of course already pretty solid in the league, what he brought was another level (three successive finals) at the European stage.
     
    comme repped this.
  3. ChizzyChisnall

    Feb 2, 2017
    Club:
    AC Siena
    Is the full match anywhere online? I've seen it before live but I don't see it on footballia or youtube.
     
  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Yeah, I figuered that out just from watching the short highlights. The FK goal looks indeed like weak goalkeeping.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    No, I've ordered the DVD.

    They don't mention it in the april 2000 article but Gazzetta has also given a 9 for Maradona vs Belgium in '86 I believe and a 9 for MvB vs Steaua in the EC final (instead they mention a 9 from later date 'increased the scale' in the then relevant & incumbent Champions League; and Fonseca his 5 goals in the UEFA Cup vs Valencia giving him a 9).
     
    MJWizards repped this.
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    There has been some sort of 'shock' about Godin only receiving a 6/10 for his Milan derby game.

    To the extent they wrote a response:

    Godin, the vote that makes us discuss: we explain why ...
    https://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Seri...tere-vi-spieghiamo-perche-3402693807002.shtml

    [​IMG]

    The very same grader gave Milito once a 10+ (really?)

    [​IMG]

    Heard about this when hearing VIs weekend review (needless to say, they found it on the low side - textual analysis of Godin's value, without me reading this article here).
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This apparently received a 10/10 in the Sunday Times:








    Also: Matip stood out against Chelsea in the same weekend, designated man of the match (but saw only the highlights, was watching PSV vs Ajax - Matip's stats, I briefly saw, looked great).

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...p-virgil-van-dijk-jonathan-liew-a9116591.html
    https://anfieldindex.com/39976/joel...-raises-the-performance-levels-of-others.html
     
  8. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Really? Personally I would never give a 10/10 for such an unimportant performance. They could swap De Bruyne for one of his backups and the scoreline would still be a trashing.
     
  9. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I get that 10/10 in the final of world cup is greater than 10/10 against Watford but by that logic, you can not score 10 out of 10 in unimportant games, which makes no sense, does it?
    You should always be able to perform for the full range of scale.
     
  10. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I didn't say you can't score 10/10 in unimportant games, I said you shouldn't get 10/10 for an unimportant performances.

    KDB was involved in 3 out of 8 goals from what I've seen.
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Watford was/is bottom of the table and the prime candidate to get relegated.

    Of course that doesn't rule out a 10/10 necessarily but then you have to think of:

    - High goal involvement by the player, or a record amount of goals (for a midfielder), a record amount of assists (for a midfielder). Or more than one successful through-ball in the match (according to OPTA). The single game record of assists for a midfielder is four by Cazorla, Fabregas and Tadic (includes set pieces). The single game record of goals for a midfielder is also four, by Lampard (includes penalties) and Wijnaldum.

    - The single game scoring record by the team. The record is Man United vs Ipswich 9-0 in 1995, also against a relegation team.

    Would he himself value the Brazil 2018 goal and performance more highly? Probably. He has the reputation to be opinionated and not the easiest (grew up 15-20km removed from the NED border ;)) so maybe someone can ask.
     
  12. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    #537 Sexy Beast, Sep 24, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
    Directly 3. Indirectly he was involved in almost all of them. Good pass before foul for penalty. Corner kick..

    I dont get the "you shouldnt" part. It sounds like you are saying there is nothing he can do to deserve the 10 vs Watford simply because it is unimportant game, period.. i disagree with that.i think you should be able to get 10/10, but aftewards we can debate whether 10 against Watford is greater than, for example, 8 in ucl semi final. Obviously the 8/10 in ucl semi final will hold the greater value.

    What about the fact that this is De Bruynes best performance in terms of the expected assists value since 2014/15 season, according to understat.
    Statistically the best playmaking performance by one of the greatest playmakers of the last decade. That has to worth something by default.

    1.98 xA. I hold greater value to that number than his 3 assists games in which xA value was lower. Whether his teammates finish his chances or not doesnt worsen his performance. And Aguero did miss a lot against Watford. Given Citys quality, this could have easily been 4 assists perfòrmance on some other day.
    For the comparison, Messi only once went higher than 1.98 xA in la liga. That tells you all. David Silvas highest is 1.31 xA. Ozils is 1.64.

    But thats not the only part of the story. His work rate and pressing was at very impressive level. Only few midfielders would be able to replicate that kind of pressing performance.

    Overal i would give him 9/10, because i dont give 10s easily and there is a reasonable argument that he could perform slightly better especially in terms of finishing, but this comes as close to 10/10 as any other performance.

    Btw, i think, by an eye test, this destroying performances by City are much less common when there is no De Bruyne on the pitch.
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think a couple or more of his passes/crosses could be considered 10/10 passes/crosses.

    Maybe a journalist can see that (see that he does it repeatedly) and think "wow, I'm giving him a 10 for this". I don't want to come over as a football 'snob' or just too skeptical and unenthusiastic, but I feel like a 10/10 should be (or would be if I'm handing it out) either a kind of "football can't be played better than this can it?" kind of display (and maybe that would involve the player gliding past players, scoring dribble goals, creating goals in varied ways such as 1-2's etc as well as how De Bruyne does it here, but this is what I mean with 'football snob' as maybe I'm being too limiting in which players are even capable of convincing me towards a 10/10) or a performance that is near 'perfect' in the sense of virtually always making a great decision, a great pass, controlling the ball well, hardly losing possession, always progressing play cleverly and smoothly, contributing a lot to getting the ball back perhaps too.... (and we can see he does lose possession a few times, and while it was an important game to win maybe it did become an 'easy' one as it progressed).

    So yes, I'd rather say he gave a few examples of 10/10 creative attacking passes, instead of saying it's a 10/10 overall performance. But I'd hardly ever give 10/10 I guess either.
     
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  14. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    #539 schwuppe, Sep 24, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
    I literally clarified in the post that you've quoted that I'm not, so you're arguing against a strawman.

    Sorry if the "you shouldn't" is misleading here. You can rate him 10/10, everybody has different standards and it's subjective. For me personally it wouldn't be enough, but just like PDG I hardly would rate someone 10/10.

    So we actually 100% agree and this argument was completely pointless?
     
  15. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Yes.
    xA + xGBuildup
    De Bruyne vs Watford 2019 1.98 + 2.69
    Messi vs La Coruña 2016 1.05 + 2.92
    Neymar vs Real Betis 2015 1.61 + 2.02
    Ozil vs Leicester 2018 1.48 + 2.11
    Silva vs Fulham 2018 0.70 + 2.28

    For now De Bruyne is one of the best advanced playmakers of the last 5 years with 0.45 Expected Assist per 90 and 0.52 Buildup involvement a bit better than David Silva (0.32/0.59) and Neymar (0.44/0.50), below Messi tho (0.48/0.52). But this season he is reaching a new level of playmaking ability and influence in this Guardiola's machine.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    All those individualized stats are fancy, but it's ultimately very hard to detach it from the team you play for and the opposition (against teams with much lower budgets). You can quasi individualize this but not really. Play for better teams (if you can cut it athletically etc.) and you can make better assists.

    This is like saying producing a number of goals for Southampton (low xA is the result I assume, low expected goals too if you score three for Leicester) is of lower value than bombard a minnow with a superb platform around you. That support cast and stability also allow KDB to pick his best spots, rhytm, rest moments and passes.

    Most of the time he wasn't really under pressure from an opponent (not only him, but also other assist monsters from time to time).

    I log off now for today but yes, I'd start to think about a 10 if some actual records are broken against relegation fodder for the most stacked team in PL history. That wasn't the case.

    edit: totally agree with PDG. And a healthy KDB is perhaps the best, most catalyst, influential player of the league.
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    L'Equipe gave Gnabry a 10/10 for his four goals against the Totally Hotshits.

    The opponent looked bad on the highlights but 7 goals is also a few above their expected goals (can mean Lloris wasn't superb either; he looked out of position for the 1-1 shot imho). Lewandowski stood out on the highlights for me, for his all-around movement and play.

    Either way, it appears as if a 10 has become less rare by L'Equipe.
     
  18. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    #543 schwuppe, Oct 2, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
    Might be just a fluke that we had 3 in 2019.
    In the end it's 4 goals on the road vs the CL finalist, so it's not a stretch.

    Some other four goal games in the CL:
    van Basten vs Göteborg - no idea if that was even rated
    Prso vs Depor - French team so this was likely rated and I would guess he got a 9?

    Messi and Lewandowski got a 10

    Luiz Adriano had 5 goals vs BATE, but it wasn't graded
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    There are stranger 10 graded performances for sure. Need to check all the actions for Gnabry his overall play but it doesn't surprise me Spurs are this erratic and feeble. They rode their luck last season (as is often the case in cup competitions) with VAR and referees bailing them out at times in the KO games. The way they played out from the back looked shocking in the highlights.

    In general I feel Coman and Gnabry are less technical players (not as good passers of the ball for example) as 'Robbery' previously, but of course that doesn't rule out a 10 by definition. It is the first 4 goal CL game in four years so that makes it logical as well.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Maybe not. It was a game between the last 8 teams (36 teams entered, Milan and Barca entered the last 32 teams) but Marseille played at the same timeslot.

    Gazzetta gave a 9 but had some high superlatives (Pelé comparisons and all), and it were quality goals:
    http://archiviostorico.gazzetta.it/...n_Basten_Incanto_senza_ga_10_0505111672.shtml

    Prso vs Depor maybe also is a borderline 10 although Depor was two year past their peak.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...lysis-champions-league-coutinho-gnabry-thiago

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...s-bayern-munich-champions-league-201920-live/

    https://betweentheposts.net/tottenh...champions-league-pochettino-spurs-fade-press/

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...learned-champions-league-result-a9128791.html

    https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...-tactical-analysis-champions-league-2019-20/2

    An issue of fitness and individual errors it seems. Lloris is not in the best phase of his career.
     
  22. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Spurs have been really terrible in 2019, despite somehow making the CL final.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Various articles have been written about the increase of scorelines and comebacks in the Champions League:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/so...champions-league-comebacks-1.3886405?mode=amp

    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/uef.../saisonId/1992/runde//heimGast//stand//plus/0

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...n-away-champions-second-leg-tie-10114716.html

    https://www.apnews.com/88049db897fe431faec6bea1104966f9

    Thus from that perspective a 10 becomes more likely I guess.

    Those swings are compounded by that football is now very much a pressing and possessing game. Collapses can arrive very quick when fatigue kicks in.

    Despite international football being more cautious, we have seen some 4+ goals games too (between two strong national sides in a competitive match).
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thread:


    Seemingly the team was torn between two thoughts, the staff said. One part of the team wanted to slow down, the others remained frantic.
     

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