The best games of the best players

Somebody has already put it on YouTube:


What might be interesting is to see what grade Italian newspapers were giving it, if you can find any such info, since they are traditionally less generous. But by my own scale I at least see it as somewhere in the same ballpark as that Figo performance I posted yesterday (9 out of 10 give or take - certainly not more or less if only using increments of 0.5 I don't think). I'd give the edge to Messi on use of the ball and vision (even though Trippier perhaps should be closer to the touchline at times I feel), but to Figo (more in his athletic peak of course) on skill under pressure and progressive dribbling/passing etc (under more immediate pressure too although Messi also gets fouled a few times) and quality of goals. Both top notch level though, and I remember I had the Man City home game right up there as far as Messi performances go, and maybe it's not even easy to conclude that's much better than this performance.

Of course not watching Tottenham vs Barcelona in full might give less of a full impression too.

 

One of the most fascinating qualities of football in my esteem is, for example, how deceptively close performances such as Messi vs. Tottenham 2018/19 or Messi vs. Juventus 2016/17 are... Of course this time Messi's fabulous pre-assist got the finish it deserved, unlike the pair of assists that were not finished vs. Juventus 2016/17, especially the first goal that wasn't scored - an away goal scored in the first half of the first leg of the quarter finals - that goal should've changed the entire complexion of that fixture, that goal should've forced an immediate attack-minded reaction from Juve, that goal should've made Messi's job considerably less difficult, etc. Just goes to show how much of a team game football is, for instance, it probably isn't far fetched to argue that Messi v Juventus 2017 was one Iniesta goal short (and perhaps also one Suarez in good form short) of turning into Messi v Tottenham 2018.

In terms of passing ability against top tier opponents, Messi's passing has been on point vs. Juventus 2017, Chelsea 2018, and Tottenham 2018. (The pin point assist vs. France at World Cup 2018 is another recent example of Messi's passing ability against top tier opponents.)

 

This explains that decent enough:


Simplistically put: Tottenham used their four men (pressing) defense to stop two attackers (Suarez, Coutinho) and that was hard enough. Ideally most coaches want to have a three vs two situation.

Coutinho was this time used as an attacker rather than midfielder. Perhaps the right move, effectively the replacement of compatriot Neymar (for both footballing and marketing reasons).

 

That Messi performance yesterday was the best of the calendar year for me as far as individual player performances go.

 

Check his performance vs Celta Vigo in 15/16( probably his best of the season)
The Copa del Rey final 2014/2015

I don’t even think this was his best vs an English opponent.i personally prefer the 09/10 performance vs arsenal
From an entertainment perspective I would go with the league home match performance against athletic Bilbao in 11/12(where perhaps he didn’t demonstrate his playmaking abilities aswell as he did vs Tottenham but was vastly superior in dribbling-he also managed to get in the scoresheet)

Completely outrageous

 

You are a remarkably disingenuous poster.
Since when did Tottenham F.C. become a top tier opponent?
And Chelsea 17/18 conceded one more goal than Burnley city,finished 5th in the league and was generally underwhelming.

And juventus is now allegedly a big team even though you have written 5000+ posts detailing how Ronaldo has scored his goals against a defensively suspect juventus.
Your posts are as per usual filled with a litany of mistakes,misinformation and propaganda.

 

Remarkably disingenuous because you cannot read tone nor context??

I mean perhaps I used the term "top tier" a little too loosely there, I would give you that if I were feeling generous enough, but at no point was I trying to say or even convey that Tottenham is at the same level as Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, and now presumably Ronaldo's Juventus. At any rate, you just blatantly ignored or misread the obvious context and tone of what "top tier" actually meant within the given sentence. You do that all the time, to be honest with you.

Juventus 2017, Chelsea 2018, and Tottenham 2018 -- top tier opponents, the "top tier" part used loosely. Not one of those teams is quite at the same level as Real Madrid, Barcelona, or Bayern Munich. But certainly, Juventus 2017, Chelsea 2018, and Tottenham 2018, are significantly more competitive than Schalke 2014 or Wolfsburg 2014 i.e. modest clubs that would've been routinely dominated by any version of Barcelona.

To be fair though, Tottenham was severely depleted, so arguably the term "top tier" does not even apply loosely to the team that played yesterday. Maybe I overlooked that a bit too much, but again, you are missing the point when you think that I think that Tottenham is "top tier" as in the same level as Real Madrid, Barcelona, or Bayern Munich, etc. At any rate, what I meant to say was that Messi was great against a club that finished in the top 4 of the Premier League last season.

By the way: Chelsea 2017/18 was definitely better than Atletico Madrid and arguably also better than Barcelona, in terms of Champions League form. Barcelona was lucky to make it past the Round of 16, and Chelsea's 5th place finish in the Premier League was an unexpected result and should not affect Chelsea's form in February, which is when Messi v Chelsea happened. At that point - February 20th - Chelsea had 53 points (4th place), Liverpool had 54 points (3rd place), and Manchester United had 56 points (2nd place), but you want to act as though Messi played against a subpar 5th placed Chelsea who was subpar all season long.

Ronaldo v Wolfsburg 2016? Wolfsburg 2015/16 sat in 8th place already by February 20, which is when Messi v Chelsea 2018 happened. Wolfsburg had 31 points (8th place), Bayer Leverkusen had 35 points (4th place), Hertha Berlin had 36 points (3rd place), and Borussia Dortmund had 51 points (2nd place), which means that Wolfsburg already was 20 points behind the 2nd best club of the Bundesliga. That is a big divide... Messi played against a Chelsea side that was 3 points behind the 2nd place club, Manchester United. Ronaldo played against a Wolfsburg side that was 20 points behind the 2nd place club, Borussia Dortmund.

Ronaldo scored his goals against a depleted Juventus 2018: this is a fact, not an opinion. And just because you cannot comprehend what context and tone is, does not mean that I think Juventus 2017/18 was top tier as in the same level as Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Bayern Munich, all of which I considered as superior to Juventus 2017/18 (in my opinion a club that was definitely lucky to have made it past Tottenham, and also a club that should've been defeated by at least a 2 goal margin vs. Real Madrid, had Real Madrid finished their chances more efficiently).

​

Let's take a look at the full contents of my post.

One of the most fascinating qualities of football in my esteem is, for example, how deceptively close performances such as Messi vs. Tottenham 2018/19 or Messi vs. Juventus 2016/17 are... Of course this time Messi's fabulous pre-assist got the finish it deserved, unlike the pair of assists that were not finished vs. Juventus 2016/17, especially the first goal that wasn't scored - an away goal scored in the first half of the first leg of the quarter finals - that goal should've changed the entire complexion of that fixture, that goal should've forced an immediate attack-minded reaction from Juve, that goal should've made Messi's job considerably less difficult, etc. Just goes to show how much of a team game football is, for instance, it probably isn't far fetched to argue that Messi v Juventus 2017 was one Iniesta goal short (and perhaps also one Suarez in good form short) of turning into Messi v Tottenham 2018.

The above is almost the entirety of what I wrote, and at no point in the paragraph above do I say that Juventus 2017 was "top tier" and/or that Tottenham was "top tier."

In terms of passing ability against top tier opponents, Messi's passing has been on point vs. Juventus 2017, Chelsea 2018, and Tottenham 2018. (The pin point assist vs. France at World Cup 2018 is another recent example of Messi's passing ability against top tier opponents.)

The tiny statement above inspired a whole conspiracy theory hit-piece from you... I mean that was enough for you to create a whole hit-piece on how evil, dishonest, and disingenuous I am. The "top tier opponents" context was obviously meant to say that a top 4 club that finished first place in the same group as Real Madrid last season, should be regarded as a "top tier opponent" to get in the group stage. It was not propaganda nor misinformation aimed as a jab at Ronaldo v Juventus 2018.

 

The CL group stage is completely useless. It's a glorified friendly for Barca, they weren't even close to elimination in way over a decade. I genuinely think even his game vs Bilbao or Valencia has more value.

 

8 by Gazzetta and Corriere, 9 by L'Equipe.

CL that I know of which Messi got a higher grade than 8 by GdS:

2008/09 Bayern 9
2009/10 Arsenal 9
2010/11 Panathinaikos 8,5
2010/11 United 9
2011/12 Leverkusen 10
2012/13 Milan 8,5
2014/15 Bayern 9
2015/16 Roma 8,5
2016/17 City 8,5
2017/18 Juve 9
2017/18 Chelsea 9

 

Thanks. Not sure I'd put all of those ahead, but could be hard to decide - for example I just reviewed the Bayern 2008/09 performance (the home game I guessed?) and I don't necessarily feel he played better, but then he did have a big effect on the score and result in that big game, and caused panic simply due to running so fast with the ball, directly towards the Bayern goal, keeping the ball close to him.

Two I did think I might put ahead I remember are not on the list, so maybe Real Madrid (a) 2010/11 and Manchester City (h) 2014/15 are not rated above 8, or maybe you've just not seen the rating?

I'd have to check Vegan's thread, but I think I noticed one Italian publication might have scored Salenko 10 out of 10 in WC94 when he scored loads of goals, and so maybe it's not too surprising Messi got the 10 vs Leverkusen, in that context.

 

Always fine margines if someone deserves a 8, 8.5, 9 or so. L'Equip game him a 9 and they also gave him a 9 for the Bayern

2010/11 Real
GdS 8
LE 8
CdSp 8

That was really surprising, however that game was 7 years ago and I haven't watched it since...

2014/15 City
GdS 8
LE 8
CdSp 8

 

Luis Suarez got a 9 from Gazzetta/Corrierre
Seriously? His overall play was really, really terrible, he literally lost the ball everytime he touched it.

 

Suarez has always looked technically unimpressive on the ball when compared for the greats in his position
Which is why many would still opt for a Henry at his prime who didn’t necessarily have a greater statistical output but looked more aesthetically pleasing than the rough style of Suarez

On paper it was a hat trick against Real Madrid( the champions league holders) which looks to be a great achievement
In reality Real Madrid was a 7th placed La Liga team (before the game)with one of the worst defensive records in the entire league
They are also experiencing their biggest goal drought in living memory which makes his unimpressive hat trick (Including 1 pen and one deflected goal) even less impressive


Note:
Suarez has often been accused of being a flat track bully,a title he earned in the EPL
For Barcelona you can probably count on one hand the games he helped decide against big teams
The vast majority coming in his first season against PSG,Bayern and juventus(even if his winning goal did involve a major stroke of luck-a deflection of a Lionel Messi shot)

Since then he has largely been a small team killer of La Liga teams with relatively no impact in the champions league knockout stages

 

It's 2018. These stupid journos that rate players only care about numbers and statistics. Absolute joke what this has become.

 

Suarez was not good on the ball, stylish or not... I mean looking unimpressive vs. being unimpressive, are entirely different premises.

By the way: I always find Suarez in his Liverpool days to look impressive, precisely because it is impressive to watch how a player as 'aesthetically rough' as Suarez can - at the same time - be so efficient and so prolific at dribbling and also at ball retention; it might not be necessarily stylish to the eye, but it is nonetheless in a sense impressive for the eye to watch a seemingly non-aesthetic player who can consistently do difficult things when on-the-ball. It is very rare and therefore impressive to the eye (but yes, not necessarily stylish).

 

Getting out of group stages comfortably every single season doesnt make it any less valuable, just like dominating la liga for past decade doesnt eventually make it an unimportant achievment, dont take it for granted. There is nothing about Inter, PSV, Tottenham that could be considered as a glorified friendly especially in the case of Barcelona which, last season, got eliminated by no stronger opponent than Inter/Spurs, Roma..

Atletico didnt get past group stages last season, Liverpool/PSG is about to be eliminated,.. group stages are not a complete joke

 

C.Ronaldo vs ManU home 2018/19... at his very best in post-prime era. Great overal performance

 

Lloris received an 8 by France Football and L'Equipe despite not winning.

9 - Hugo Lloris made 9 saves against the Netherlands, a record for a goalkeeper with France in a single game in the last 10 years. Wall. pic.twitter.com/2okVKGtArV

— OptaJean (@OptaJean) November 16, 2018

https://www.francefootball.fr/news/...-mbappe-griezmann-giroud-tres-decevant/959785


To be honest, a 9 would be appropriate as well. I'd think it was comparable to the recent best of De Gea (his Sevilla game or Arsenal game).

14 - David de Gea made 14 saves against Arsenal on Saturday, equalling the most by a goalkeeper in a single @premierleague match since 2003-04. Fronton pic.twitter.com/wEEHjdhHgd

— OptaJose (@OptaJose) December 4, 2017

8 - David de Gea has made eight saves against Sevilla, the most for a Manchester United goalkeeper in a Champions League game since Edwin van der Sar vs Barcelona in May 2011 (8). Hero. pic.twitter.com/OpxZQSzK9p

— OptaJose (@OptaJose) February 21, 2018

David De Gea now has the joint-most saves in a single Premier League game 🥅

🇮🇹 Vito Mannone - 14 (19/04/14)
🇪🇸 David de Gea - 14 (02/12/17)
🇳🇱 Tim Krul - 14 (10/11/13)

Currently the best in the world 👏🏻 pic.twitter.com/zRfJ6Dm40W

— 🎯 Tommy's Darts Tips (@TommysDartsTips) December 4, 2017

 

I remember Puck we were trying to identify good options for Bergkamp a while ago, and I think this one vs Leicester (not the 97/98 away one we talked about, but the following season at home) would be in the conversation:

I think anyway it is a good one to show an excellent yet typical sort of display by him. What is missing I suppose is goals by himself (he could have finished a couple of decent chances, or obviously if he'd put a curler in the top corner plus scored following skills/dribbling either going himself or with one-twos then it really would be a stand-out choice and a complete representation of him....but it's rare to get that in any game for any player - Maradona vs Belgium which I put at number 1 possibly, and maybe you/others agree doesn't actually have assists of course even if he made some chances).

Anyway, his hat-trick of assists (impressive ones, especially the first I'd say; and he nearly had some more) is arguably similarly notable as his hat-trick of goals in the 97/98 away fixture, and similarly representative of his qualities and effectiveness.

I think actually this video must be taken from extended highlights (so not so different to Pele vs USSR 1965 in that way; I guess the Arsenal-Leicester highlights would not be quite so long actually), so maybe it's slightly better or maybe slightly worse overall than we can judge here. The extended highlights will be what I will have seen at the time I think, assuming that is commentary from the TV show broadcast that evening which I think it is, rather than something added later as sometimes happens.

I don't suggest this is Bergkamp's clear best, even that I'm aware of, or something, and all in all due to what it is missing (and perhaps being against Leicester even if they were an ok PL team then, and not as easy to carve open as he makes it seem), I wouldn't be scoring it as a 9+ out of 10 I don't think, but as I was fairly sure I'd not posted it or shown it to you I thought it was worth mentioning and adding here.


EDIT - Sorry, it's 4 assists (plus nearly a couple more) so not just a hat-trick of them. That would have been 8 points in Fantasy Football, compared to the 9 for the hat-trick of goals the season before!

 

Yes thanks, we indeed wondered about what would be the best possibilities (has ofc, without exaggeration, many matches with creative/imaginative/clever moments against big sides but not necessarily always great, great shape or his best performances as a whole).

It doesn't look as great defending to be honest but it was the first Premier League match where a player had 4 assists in one match (and all in open play; as was usual for him). It took 7 years before that got equaled and 13 years before someone else had 4 open play assists (Adebayor, with one of his assists clearly unintentional). It is still a joint-record (him and Adebayor for open play; 6 players with 4 assists in one match).

Leicester did reach the League Cup final that season (finished 10th in the league), losing to Tottenham in the last minute (incidentally I watched the long highlights this weekend plus some of their matches vs Liverpool - the 'top' team they registered the best results against - ManUnited the past few days to check Ginola and to a lesser extent Campbell and I kind of feel/think he performed better in an England shirt). Arsenal themselves had the best defensive record (17 goals against, 13 better than anyone else) while being outscored by three rivals.

This weekend I was impressed by Lucas Torreira and his all-round game (but didn't watch all matches and principally refuse to watch ManCity now).

 

This is I think a strong candidate for Baggio his best club performance when he was at the peak of his fame

 

I remember thinking at times that Campbell might be 'playing to instruction' by making safety-first clearances and long balls down the middle, when George Graham had become Tottenham manager. With England, he made a mark in the 1998 WC by bringing the ball forwards himself at times, in a back 3 (plus wing-backs) that especially suited him doing that.

Moving away from best players all-time, to best players around today, and based on highlights, I thought about Felipe Anderson vs Newcastle - the MOTD pundits/commentators also praising him at the end of the game. I had a quick look on YouTube but there's no video for that performance (but there are some fan comment videos with West Ham fans picking him out I noticed although didn't watch them). I also checked if I could find some high player ratings, but 90 Minutes website (90 Minutes is/was a magazine like Shoot! and Match) praised him but just gave a 7, while a West Ham site gave him an 8 (and Hernandez, who did also miss a chance crafted by Anderson, getting a 9, and the comments pointed to Anderson not being so good in the 1st half as the 2nd).

 

Yes that was I thinking and also that in those matches (Liverpool three times, United two times, Leicester - matches where his team achieved good results against) there were a few scenes where he mistimed slidings and tackles quite a bit, poor distribution or clearances (as mentioned on wikipedia, lol), tendency to be out of position or gets easily dribbled past while I don't remember that for the major England games (1998, 2000 + qualifiers) - just like Bobby Moore showing his best for the national team generally (not that I'm an expert but if someone would ask me for tips then I'd mention the 1998 and 2002 games vs Argentina as outstanding displays).
So to me he looked both more spectacular on the ball moving forward as well as more secure defensively (this led me to calculating how the team did with him suspended or injured). Ginola well possibly the opposite case, who was better for his club (even if the club was in a very bad shape) than for his country.

I recognize though that highlights don't show the 'boring' good moments (they show the spectacular defending and the chances by opposition) and it is 'easier' to defend well next to other good team mates (individually, too). Ottamendi, Vertonghen and the likes play for vastly better teams but are a guarantee for many mistakes, and aren't really less error prone (Vertonghen ofc a very good player and not without reason one of the few (overseas) defenders to be elected player of the month).