The best games of the best players

De Bruyne 10 out of 10 for me in this one. What a remarkable performance. He is worthy of comparisons with generational talents like Zidane. It's a bit early, he just got to that level, but i am sure he will stay there for some while, if not getting even better.
He is only 25. Age at which Zidane just joined Juventus (to put him in perspective of how young he is).. i am really excited to see what he can pull of in this WC and in rest of his career at City.

 

If you guys have wondered, i quit. I am not even going to start evaluating any performance whatsoever, nor will i try to expand upon my idea.

I've been thinking about it and i've actually managed to get a strong grip and further simplify the system that i was trying to apply in evaluation to the extent i think it's quite elegant and simple to understand for everyone, but then i thought about it even more and i've realized that there are so many variables and complications that i haven't even been aware of that it would take just too much time and effort to deal with and since this is either "all or nothing" situation (i don't like partial solutions),.. i am afraid it's nothing.
It was fun tho to come to the edges of my understanding of football. If someone is interested i could explain to what conclusions i came and where i got stuck in my brainstorming, but i seriously recommend you to not start the journey.
As, i think, i showed in this forum so far, i am really trying to go deep with my analysis in football and i kind like doing it because i really like football as a game, but this,.. OH MAN, unless, i would say, you are literally insane person (or trying to become one), it's not the way to go. It's just too much to deal with for such a small benefit.

 

Iniesta was given a 6.5 by one Gazzetta reviewer yesterday. I thought he was a bit better than that, big candidate for MOTM, although WhoScored has him on 7.2 while boosted by an assist (Busquets 7.4, Messi 7.3).

Willian has a 7.5. Kante, Hazard, Pique, Umtiti, Iniesta and Messi a 6.5. Intriguingly Busquets is the lowest rated Barcelona player while on WhoScored he was the best rated. Not his best game but over a full season he's one of the two most important players I'd say.

Lewandowski also outstanding in the 2nd half after the red card for the opponent (which Lewandowski provoked). I saw and read in the foreign press that Robben made a visible impact too when he came on, stretching the opponent etc. and liven up things (see many saying this on twitter too). Many also saying Muller had his best game of the season.

 

@PDG1978

I'm curious about your list of Savicevic his best games. Some are to be expected (1991 vs Manchester United, 1994 vs Barcelona) but like to see that.

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/bi...-year-1950-2009.1389516/page-66#post-36342717

I don't mean this as criticism; I think it's often forgotten/overlooked he was among the better players in the world in some of his best years or seasons. In that aspect he's occasionally underappreciated.

 

Yes, sure. Of course with a list like on that thread the general longevity advantages of a Bergkamp or Baggio are not showing up if you know what I mean (assuming somebody would not place them top 5 in the world anyway in any years or seasons as mature players). So although Cristiano's longevity is arguably better in effect, it probably also seems over-stated compared to them too I guess (because he is making top 5s without being in his best version consistently or at all, while they didn't do that).

I would like to be able to see a list of games Channel 4 showed on Football Italia of course, especially for 94/95, to refresh my memory. But anyway any games not available on Footballia could not be viewed so easily by you probably. There are the highlights vs Fiorentina on Youtube that I showed you before I think, and his performance vs Parma from 95/96 is on Youtube as a 'Savicevic vs' video.

But other ones I'd add to the mix at least for sure would include the game vs AC Milan for Red Star Belgrade in 1988/89 (home - also a 'Savicevic vs' video is on Youtube now), games vs Bayern Munich and Dynamo Dresden particularly I think from that 1990/91 season (maybe both legs even - again the videos with his touches are on Youtube separately too - IIRC all of those and maybe I'd pick Bayern at home and Dresden away which obviously had the individual goal), plus Paris St Germain in the 1994/95 semi-final (I gave scores for all players for the leg in Milan of course not so long ago and gave him 8.75 which I gave to Litmanen vs Bayern in his home leg in the other semi-final too).

Yes, I think his peak form, both literally, and also in terms of seasons it seems to a decent extent (when not out injured anyway), is a plus point for him. Also performances in big/notable games tended to be, but I also did see him play very well in regular Serie A games.

He's good in a cameo vs France in 1988 I can add just for interest (setting up goals as substitute) but I wouldn't add that to 'best games' - I wouldn't add substitute appearances for anyone I don't think except in exceptional circumstances maybe!

 

6 - Chelsea have had less than 30% of the ball only 6 times in the CL since 2003/04:
16% v Barcelona, 24/04/2012
20.4% v Barcelona, 18/04/2012
26.9% v Barcelona, 20/02/2018
28.7% v Barcelona, 28/04/2009
29.1% v Barcelona, 23/02/2005
29.3% v Barcelona, 06/05/2009
Habit. pic.twitter.com/uk1s5LhvRf

— OptaJean (@OptaJean) February 21, 2018

Remarkable.

139 - Sergio Busquets attempted 139 passes against Chelsea (128 successful passes), more than any other Barcelona player in a game this season in all competitions. Masterful. pic.twitter.com/lvLO8Ifosm

— OptaJose (@OptaJose) February 20, 2018

 

The thing i am concerned with is that Barcelona's possesion yesterday was mostly dead possesion which wasn't the case in any of Chelsea vs Barcelona games under Pep. Barcelona, atm, has a possesion without purpose, which is self evident if you take a look at the amount of chances and half chances they create per game.
Basically the reason they have possesion is because opposition's allow them to have it. If you look at the game against Betis, for example, when teams don't allow them to pass, they don't. They are not good at it as a team.

I wouldn't say Busquets had either good or a bad game. He was exposed on his weaknesses (lack of speed, mobility, etc.), which is more of a tactical mistake than his individual and few times he tried to make a risk, through the middle, type of pass (he usually excel at) that didn't come out so great. Can't blame him on that one either, cuze that Barcelona midfield was very uncreative and i think he was obliged to do them to initiate things offensively.
As i said milion times so far, Rakitić is an absolute burden in Barcelona's system, times and times again, he fails to positionate himself properly (if you've watched game carefully, you could have noticed that Rakitić was always running from behind trying to catch Chelsea's players with the ball. He got a yellow card in one of those ocassions) and Rakitić's contribution offenisvely is just too weak. Combine that with 33 year old Iniesta, it's not a very good combination at all. I seriously still can't believe they've spent 300+ million euros on Dembele and Coutinho while having such midfield.

This will probably sound unreal or arrogant, but i compeltely predicted the course and the outcome of the game. I predicted that Barcelona will have possesion, won't do much with it for some time, Chelsea will have better chances then that Chelsea will eventually score, get even more defensive, Barcelona will get their act together a bit (Valverde will make some tactical change) and manage to score a single goal (Messi will either score or assist or make a crucial play that leads to it) and they won't manage to score another till the end so it will end 1-1.
That's ltierally what i claimed that will happen and it did. The next game will be no different. Valverde will definitely go with 4-3-3 next game opposed to 4-4-2 from last. Chelsea will defend at the begining although they need to score. Barcelona will enjoy just as much or more possesion (but dead possesion). Opposed to yesterday's game, Barcelona will have slightly better chances at the begining (they had no chances at the begining of last game), Chelsea will have the chances of the same magnitude as Barcelona (it will be an even game for some time), they will get really close and either Ter Stegen or luck will save them on some ocassions. Eventually, the game will end up either 1-0 or 2-1 for Barcelona in yet another unconvincing performance by Barcelona. Seeing almost all of Barcelona games in last several years, they become really predictable. Last game was a perfect example of typical Barcelona game this season. Unconvincing performance, but positive result. Sooner or later they will be humiliated, again, and people will start asking questions, just like they did when they lost 4-0 vs PSG or 3-0 vs Juventus.

I can't see them going all the way to UCL thropy.

 

This is something for another thread but;

They're unbeaten in the league and Champions League. They are on course to score 98-99 goals in the league, which is not as high as some previous seasons but still equally high as 2009-2011 and markedly higher than in the Ronaldinho years. It is still very high.
Crucially, they're on course to concede 17 or 18 goals. For another season where they conceded less than 20 you need to go more than 50 years back, to 1968 when the season had 30 games (expanded to 34 in 1972, later expanded to 38 or even 40).

A possible weak point is the over-reliance on the presence/fitness of the 'La Masia' cohort, but Messi's direct end product has been higher before. He's still (by far) the primary shot taker (takes 60% more shots than #2 Suarez) but is on track to score 30 goals and around 15 assists (with around 4 penalties). Still very high, but not 45-50 goals. In the light of this, the overall team performance of going to 99 goals and conceding less than 20 is very strong.

Of course there will be a massive problem when Iniesta (who can be patched up for certain crucial games), Busquets, Pique, and not the least Messi finally grow too old (Jordi Alba can be added too perhaps).

 

lol, statistics.. as if they ever revealed something useful.

Agree it's off topic so i won't get into it, but, at the end, i will gladly take credits for an accurate prediction.

 

The Times gave Willian a 9. Hazard an 8. Azpilicueta, Rudiger, Kante, Piqué, Umtiti, Iniesta and Messi a 7.
Lowest are Ter Stegen, Sergi Roberto, Alba and Paulinho with a 5.

That opposition struggles to score against them, let alone win, for a start.

I don't claim with certainty they will win the entire thing but they are one of the two or three best teams around. Maybe the best, better than tiring Manchester City, better than geriatric Bayern, better than the leaking defense and the Neymar ball hogging ego show of PSG. In my perception, yes.

 

Funny you say that, because the ball hog Neymar alone created more chances and caused more havoc vs Real than Barcelona did in overal in their last 3 ucl games vs Chelsea, Olympiacos and Juventus, but yeah, other than that you have a point.

 

To get it back on subject, this is one of his most famous games, against Real Madrid in 1995. Very interesting and well done video, showing team shape too.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5uikab

It was included in FFT their '100 greatest matches ever played'.

List here:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-100-greatest-games-of-all-times.481639/page-7#post-35764776

The write-up for this match was:

"Eighty thousand Spaniards turned up in the hope of seeing Real Madrid topple the current European Cup holders. They ended applauding a stunning display of team football, thankful they had only lost by two goals. In an amazing early blitz Overmars, Litmanen and Kluivert all hit the crossbar, and two perfectly good goals were ruled out: a ball that had clearly crossed the line was disallowed, as was another for a highly dubious offside decision. At the home of the most famous name in European football, Ajax ran riot.
'It's as fine a performance as I've ever seen', says Archie McPherson who commentated on the match for Eurosport. 'The thing about them is that there's no one star, it's just an outstanding team'.
In the second half the movement, passing and vision of the young team finally reaped its rewards, Litmanen and Kluivert scoring in a ten-minute burst of brilliance. Madrid coach Jorge Valdano said afterwards: 'Ajax are not just the team of the '90s, they are approaching footballing utopia.'"

Also checked whether there was another game involving Savicevic (other than the 1994 final - on that already enough in above thread), but no.

 

Thanks - I'll take a proper full look at the Litmanen video. Yes, it's forgotten a bit maybe that in some ways the Ajax team at that moment was seen a little bit similarly to how recent Barcelona (and now perhaps to an extent Man City) are seen. I can see what is meant with the reference to the team as a whole rather than absolute star players (so that is a difference with Barca to an extent - Litmanen in some ways had more the efficiency and vision of a Xavi than the dynamism and more expansive flair of a prime Messi or previously Ronaldinho in individual dribbles and plays...but I think he was the key player probably if there was one indeed).

Hopefully I didn't mis-lead regarding the Youtube videos for Savicevic (thanks for the gratitide anyway) as it not necessarily all touches in most cases but mostly the 'skills' videos. I'll post the Bayern one below as example, and also since I can't show what I did see (mainly, with some exceptions) for him at Milan, I'll show a 'skills' (although quite long and complete) one for a game I'm fairly sure I didn't see at the time, vs Bordeaux in 95/96 (he didn't play in the away leg where Milan lost and went out). It is good enough that I could have included it when I mentioned the other games I think but somehow didn't think to do so - in the same sort of ballpark for his performance (very good).

 

Hristo Stoichkov has at occasions cited this game as the best (club) match he played.

18 april 1992

 

I forgot to mention De Gea. I don't see nearly every game, but he was decisive against Sevilla

8 - David de Gea has made eight saves against Sevilla, the most for a Manchester United goalkeeper in a Champions League game since Edwin van der Sar vs Barcelona in May 2011 (8). Hero. pic.twitter.com/OpxZQSzK9p

— OptaJose (@OptaJose) February 21, 2018

One of the very rare goalkeepers that plays for 1) a top team and 2) gets tested regularly.

 

Watched today Romania vs Argentina of the 1994 World Cup. One of the classics I think, although the last minutes could be better - some hectic minutes would have been a nice finale. Argentina was obviously without (ageing) Maradona, Romania was without the suspended Raducioiu. The then AC Milan forward scored four open play goals at the World Cup.

In the first half Romania had the bravery to play, under the 35 degrees heat. In the second half they sat back; defending the lead and having noticed Argentina's weakness in transition. Referee was the Italian Pairetto.

This time I think France Football got the ratings mostly right. Belodedici, Munteanu, Hagi and Dumitrescu received a 5/6. Especially the last one is with his two goals, an assist, and dangerous dribbling a strong candidate for man of the match. Argentina their defense ended the game with three yellow cards and that was predominantly the product of Dumitrescu his actions.

Comparing Munteanu against his right sided colleague Dan Petrescu (a 3/6) is interesting. Munteanu had certainly some nice vertical ground passes. After or next to Hagi their best linkman. At the same time Argentina was far less effective in developing attacks where Petrescu was playing, a full-back who is at hindsight best known for his stylish play, his goals and assists.
This solidity is best illustrated at the 2-1. Redondo had moved up to the left sided edge of the penalty box. Petrescu robbed the ball from him, initiated a counter attack, and the 2-1 followed. Redondo stood at almost the same position when the 3-1 was scored (initiated by goalkeeper Islas). In my view a more sensible set up would have been to make Simeone the deepest midfielder (on paper, average position), rather than the other way around. Or seen in a different way: Simeone makes Redondo his point of reference, instead of vice versa (which was clearly the case).

For 'great player' Hagi this is a good game - good finish with his weak foot and good long ball with his weak foot; for Batistuta (after the first 15 minutes) and Redondo (offensively class, defensively and in transition vulnerable) less so. The best performers of this match were - as far as I can judge it - Dumitrescu (MOTM), Hagi, Ortega and Simeone. In the last 15 minutes of the match Chamot was also good (the left back; played the last 15 minutes more inside).



A few days ago someone uploaded this compilation, the 1981 semi final - I think it is one of Souness his most pivotal games indeed. Dalglish left the field after 9 minutes.



"Bayern left printed leaflets all around the Olympic Stadium advising supporters how to travel to Paris for the final. If that smacked of arrogance, assistant manager Joe Fagan reinforced the point by pinning up a translation of a German newspaper interview with Bayern captain Paul Breitner on the dressing room wall. Breitner was quoted as saying Liverpool had shown no intelligence in the first leg at Anfield. Matchwinner Ray Kennedy admitted afterwards that he could not be sure the translation was a faithful one – but it had the desired effect. A Liverpool team has rarely been so fired up as they were that night, midfielder Graeme Souness later recalled."

 

Also interesting is Ryan Giggs. What would be among his best games? His form varied through the years. Apart from around 1993 and 1994, I also think 2000 and 2001 belong among his five best years from an individual perspective. These are nowadays a bit underrated, as compared to 1998-1999 and 2006-2007 where I believe his contribution is over-inflated a bit (esp. 1998-99, and the goals+assists shows that pretty well).

Often mentioned is this match:

01/10/1997 - Manchester United vs Juventus
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5t6lfu



Juventus was in terms of production one of his favored opponents. For an early match where he played as central midfielder (not as a shuttler), check the 1996 away game against Juventus. He did reasonably well, but apparently him being subbed out was related to something else:

"Juventus were the standard that any team with aspirations to win the Champions League had to reach, and we were no different at United. Juventus were different to what I knew. They played a 4-3-3 formation and by the time we went to Turin to play the defending champions in that autumn of 1996, they had a new star. Zinedine Zidane had joined from Bordeaux and he operated in a midfield three with Conte and Didier Deschamps. By any standards, that is a pretty useful trio of footballers.

“Like all good teams, Chelsea made the pitch feel very small when they do not have the ball and then, in an instant, when they do have it they can make the pitch feel very big ” Because Marcello Lippi played a 4-3-3 formation in an era when just about every English side played 4-4-2, there was always a decision to be made for his opposing manager as to whether to change – as there often is now with Conte’s 3-4-3 at Chelsea. That night Sir Alex Ferguson decided that we would match Juventus and play 4-3-3 ourselves but by half-time it had turned into a nightmare for me. We were 1-0 down to Alen Boksic’s goal but that was only half the story. I was in midfield with Nicky Butt and David Beckham. The problem, in my view, was Eric Cantona had always been used to playing with a strike partner and functioned best that way. He had Jordi Cruyff and Karel Poborsky either side of him, but my main complaint was that Eric was not showing for the ball enough and at half-time I decided to make my feelings known.

It should be said that in the absence of any options my attempts to dribble out of midfield that night were at the less successful end of the scale. My argument with Sir Alex ended with me throwing a drink which hit a kit skip and landed at the feet of my boss. I knew exactly what was going to happen. “McClair,” Sir Alex said immediately, “you’re coming on”. Then he looked at me. “And you’re coming off.” My first attempt to be a dressing room know-it-all had failed miserably. I was fined one week’s wages."

(re: Zidane; he had a very good assist in this match, but other than that he was off-beat. Gazzetta, Stampa graded him with a 6. Boksic was the best I thought, not just for his goal, and he got a 7.5 and 8).


Personally I think this can be a candidate for the best - it's a level above many of the other matches (Real Madrid, Leverkusen, Inter, Valencia etc.):

 

I've another nice one for the 'original' Ronaldo at continental level - one of those I checked to fill in some gaps. That is the 1998-99 game against Real Madrid at home.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2vjos1

I guess that contrasting the home and away match provides a glimpse into how fitness/sharpness can influence the technical proficiency because it is down a couple of levels in the other game (not only his footwork).

These two matches have imho a couple generational greats who were at the top of their play: Ronaldo (at San Siro), Mijatovic (in Seville), Seedorf in both matches (played as a forward in Seville, as a defensive screener in San Siro - scored an open play goal in both games), Bergomi in San Siro (totally cancelled Raul). Baggio had a good cameo too.

Then there's also Roberto Carlos and Redondo.

This is truly a good and insightful match, between the Champions League and UEFA Cup holder (the one at home in San Siro, but the 50mins highlights of the other game is not bad either). It had Ronaldo at his best and also some other UEFA Cup or Champions League greats. Seedorf his passing was very good in the San Siro match - in that way he set up his goal. Mijatovic was a deceptive forward. Baggio was never the best team player but his class shone through.

Highly recommended match.

 

@PDG1978 @comme

Do you have ideas on Glenn Hoddle his best games? He is an interesting player because of his skill and because his presence in matches could vary. At times I see a player who is quite peripheral and then spreads very nice passes (after a shimmy, sometimes) that - as is so often the case with elegant players - lack some pace and punch/penetration and don't create that much danger. His defensive positioning was often criticized.

At other times he is quite impressive such as against Poland in 1986 (if I'm not mistaken) and some other examples below. Then I can see the high praise by Osvaldo Ardiles who said "Hoddle is your all-time great minus the athleticism".



The pundits say here Hoddle played well and it was "probably his best game since his debut at Wembley" (vs Bulgaria 22/11/1979).

 

I think I have seen the Feyenoord home game from 83/84 referred to as his best or among his best 90 minute performances. Also Burkinshaw (his Tottenham manager) IIRC picked out his 1981 FA Cup Final Replay performance, which can be seen in full of course.

 

Thanks. Yes this channel has some nice videos I saw (only checked one)



An article on the best players to not win the PFA or FWA player of the year award had this:
"There was of course always the impression that English football didn't quite 'get' Glenn Hoddle; that this languid aesthete, too hard to pin down, too flaky, especially in the 1980s when a little more graft, rough and indeed tumble was required. Peter Reid winning the PFA award in 1985 would seem to confirm this, although admittedly that was the season he won the league with Everton. This apparently extended to his fellow professionals too, who never gave Hoddle the requisite votes to be honoured by their association, nor did the gentlemen of the press agree with Tottenham fans' assessment that he was "The King of White Hart Lane." Hoddle moved to Monaco in 1987 in the hope that his talents would be more appreciated, and that turned out to be quite correct, as after winning Ligue 1 under Arsene Wenger in his first season, he was voted the top foreign player in France.
There was an elegance about Glenn Hoddle's game that never seemed to be appreciated during 1980's English football. There was an elegance about Glenn Hoddle's game that never seemed to be appreciated during 1980's English football."


His very best games or very best seasons might be very interesting. The same channel had this from his time in Monaco, when he was foreign player of the year in his first. That was also the only year (1987) he received votes for the Ballon d'Or.



I saw you placed him in your top ten for the decade, and I don't want to be too harsh.

 

I remember I PM'd you the extended 1979/80 highlights from Tottenham vs Forest (not specifically for Hoddle, and from memory perhaps despite his great volleyed goal there'd be an argument Ardiles played as well or even better; for sure Tottenham were the better team on that day though). I think you yourself might have found and posted that he was runner-up in the PFA award voting for that season? I suppose that puts it, along with 1987/88, as one of the ones backed up by significant recognition. I'd have thought 1981/82 and 1983/84 too perhaps would be in the mix though also.

More extended highlights here, starting with another game against Forest (not long enough to assess his whole performance but two impressive assists) - I'd seen that one before and didn't get beyond it when I found the video a few days ago:

 

Looking now at what the other games on that 1980s Tottenham 'Greavsie' selection video are and how long the highlights are for them, definitely worth a look at it I think Puck regarding Hoddle (featured in all of them with significant contributions I think probably - starting with another I saw before I think vs Liverpool and then the game he scored a famous goal in vs Watford).