The best games of the best players

I'm missing two or three probably, but those mentioned make the majority. Moreover, I'm still going to watch another 15 or so from Maldini in his prime, but only because it's Maldini, not on the basis of what I've actually seen him do, which is nowhere near as impressive as my expectations of such a legendary defender.

The link below has both the home game and the away game vs. Juventus 1994-95. I should mention: one of Maldini's better games is arguably one of those two games if I recall correctly (including one good segment that is fresh in my memory, where he neutralizes Baggio on the left wing), but Maldini doesn't play like that consistently, definitely not in the bulk of games that I've watched of him in his prime; if he did that more consistently, I would have a considerably better opinion of him in his prime.

https://paul-breitner74.blogspot.fr/p/italy-serie-coppe.html

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Which would you say are his better seasons?

Also, as a different observation: Dennis Bergkamp was considered a flop in 1993-94 and again in 1994-95, but his unique talent is still visible/evident through his disappointing form (in fact, I blame Inter for many of Bergkamp's shortcomings in Italy), which I cannot say is the case for Maldini in 1996-97 nor 1997-98. Desailly, Costacurta, and Albertini, are all relatively impressive in many of those games, but Maldini just appears to be another world class player, another player in that team, not a class above his other world class teammates. With Bergkamp, even when he is out of form, he still consistently does something that makes him appear a class above all of his Inter teammates or a class above most of his Arsenal teammates. I think the same is true about both Nesta and Puyol: even when they are out of form, they can still consistently produce a highly difficult tackle or a highly difficult aerial stunt, and that reminds you that they are a class above or at least that they have the ability of appearing to be a class above, in a way that I haven't consistently seen from Maldini in the games I've watched of him.

 

I think 1990 to 1994, and then especially the last two seasons (1992-93, 1993-94). His importance had grown by then.

Maybe 1998-99 when playing in a three man defense, although that makes it difficult to compare this with 1995-96 for example (1995-96 one of his 'good' seasons as a left back, but not among his very best). Not entirely sure whether 1998-99 was in the same class as his 1993-94 self.

As a center back clearly 2002-03 and 2003-04.

Yes, Dennis was class - not the least when playing against Maldini, LOL - and 'Calcio 2000' (very, very good publication) also praised him a great deal. For his instrumental and sudden transformational effect on Arsenal, and playing an UEFA Cup final with three different clubs (the last one lost on penalties). They rated his artistic talent high - for his input against the true elite teams too.

In the past I found Maldini 'overrated' for a very similar reason. With the major exception of 1993-94, he was never among the three or four best players of his team (not even in the way he himself or his team mates saw it). This is also more or less true for the Italian national team, although that period stretches roughly between 1993 and 1998 (very roughly, edging on the positive). For the national team I think it was a longer stretch he belonged among the three or four best players of his team.

That is the main problem I had with him, and how the descriptions got elevated over time.

As you say he was stylish in his play (and physical appearance), and personally (but I accept you might disagree) I think he was still elegant yet solid and reliable in his solutions when one compares it with Costacurta, Puyol or even Desailly.

A very underrated and underappreciated player is imho Dimitar Berbatov. Not fast, not strong, but clearly class with his technique, and also among the most productive Premier League players of his time (goals + assists), with Finkelstein his metrics placing him in the top 15 for the 2000s decade (sandwiched in between Vidic and Ferdinand for 'added value').

 

“I watched Milan in their quarter-final, second leg against Bayern Munich and Maldini went through the entire 90 minutes without tackling. That is an art and he is the master of it. He is a great player.” — Sir Alex Ferguson

This is what Fergie had to say about Maldini, and then there's the comments by some attacking players such as Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Ibrahimovic and Del Piero who faced him at one point or the other.
I haven't watched Maldini in a while and I suspect his elegant style and general appearance had a big impact on how I viewed him at the time.

 

Oh yeah, and he averaged around 0.5 tackles per game throughout his career. I don't know what can be inferred from that, in the right context yet

 

Although the general point of it is true, I am not sure how certain that number is, despite fleeting it around on the internet (there also similar numbers about the Maldini-Baresi partnership that are evidently false).

It is already a struggle to get the assists, let alone something like tackles right. In the early Premier League seasons the tackles weren't tracked and they could only verify the assists later thanks to the season reviews.

Think that 1994 and 2003 are the best finals he played.



If leadleader is curious about when his passing skills and distribution was at his best, I think 2003 is the right period to look at.

 

Maldini himself said that if he needed to tackle then he had made a mistake.

 

Yes my bad, should have specified this more. I was a tad more explicit on this in the previous reply to leadleader, the reply requesting the specific games: "the idea that Desailly maintained his form better when Milan was in the doldrums rings some bell, but I'm also curious about the first half of their seasons". With the games list given (i.e. relatively more of 1996-1998 than 1993-94) I can get leadleader his idea better.

 

Concerning the above quote... Well yeah, because Maldini was allowed to hug-and-contain players with his arms, with his upper body, and he was rarely yellow carded for what would be an automatic yellow card for most of any other defender not named Maldini. Of course he's not going to tackle a lot, his tackles are not very accurate when he does try them, and his hug-and-contain signature move was expertly perfected, on top of the fact that he was not yellow carded for hugging-and-containment stunts that were exactly just as bad as a tackle-from-behind. Smaller defenders like Franco Baresi or Carles Puyol need to tackle, simply because they don't have the physical strength nor the size to exploit their upper-body-strength to the same devastating effect as Paolo Maldini (who in my opinion was permitted to exploit that skill, without getting the yellow cards that he deserved a lot of the time).

That's probably a big part of the reason why I think Alessandro Nesta is the better defender--Nesta can tackle consistently and cleanly, there is artistry in that--of course there's also a lot of practicality when you have en expert tackler who can take a risk, win the ball in a very difficult situation, and create the counter-attack that wins you the game. In contrast, Maldini didn't tackled a lot, but he did consistently used his upper body in an arguably exploitative manner that was not only permitted but in fact celebrated, I assume because he was Maldini and it was efficient, but I think that most defenders not named Maldini would've probably and in many cases rightfully received their fair share of yellow cards for those hug-and-contain stunts that Maldini used with all of the benefits and without most of the negatives. So yeah, of course Maldini didn't tackled a lot, because he was hugging-down his opponents instead--the bottom line is that Maldini, like almost every single great defender, still consistently needed a measure of brute force. In fact, I honestly cannot think of another defender, not Maldini, that used his arms and upper body as much as Maldini. And there is artistry in that too, absolutely, but at the same time, I'm pretty sure that Maldini exploited his style of defending in a way that no other defender would've been permitted to. Hugging-and-stopping an opponent that had already gotten past you, is just as bad as a tackle-from-behind, and Maldini did that a lot and he was rarely yellow carded for those plays.

Maldini's hug-and-contain style of defending would probably not work in modern football, simply because Maldini would probably have the highest yellow card register in the history of the game. Many of Maldini's no-card-offenses would be automatic yellow cards in this day and age. At any rate: It would not work to the same effect as it did when Maldini was getting no yellow cards for many of his hug-and-contain "he's so perfect and precise that he doesn't even need to tackle" signature skills. As a reference of sorts: Imagine Gerard Pique, if Gerard Pique was allowed to use all of his upper-body-strength without the yellow cards that he gets today for much less--he'd be a considerably better defender under such conveniently suitable conditions, and especially so if he were to play in a defensive system that didn't exposed him as much as Barcelona's attacking brand of football. To be clear: I'm not saying that Pique would definitely become as great as Maldini under such suitable conditions, I'm merely saying that it is a considerable advantage that Pique didn't have in this day and age where soft-but-cynical-fouls get punished via yellow cards and/or red cards.

In conclusion: the premise that great defenders don't need to tackle because they can position themselves so efficiently that tackles aren't even necessary--that's an absolutely silly premise, absolutely baseless as far as any consistent evidence goes. Maldini did it and exploited it because his own physical attributes suited that style of defending, and in my opinion also because Maldini consistently benefited from the fact that he was not shown the yellow cards that in many occasions he clearly deserved. For every defender like Maldini, there is a more direct enforcer like Baresi, Puyol, Nesta, Ramos, Pepe, Mascherano, etc. In fact, I think that defenders who rarely tackle are the minority of them, not a marked minority, but I'd say about 40% of them more or less.

To summarize: The defensive style that Maldini made his own when off-the-ball was decidedly not elegant (albeit I think it does have its own signature uniqueness to it), even if Maldini was elegant when he did have the ball at his feet. I prefer Alessandro Nesta, an elegant defender with the ball and also without the ball. And to be clear: I do rate Paolo Maldini as a great defender (it would be foolish to argue against that), but at the same time, I suspect that the vast majority of people who rate him have never watched him closely enough and/or are heavily influenced by misplaced nostalgia.

NOTE:

By the time Alex Ferguson became a relevant well-known personality, absolutely every football fan around the world knew that Franco Baresi and Paolo Maldini were the immortal deities that every defender should aspire to. Of course, in my personal experience, that propaganda looses a lot of its credibility as soon as you watch any other world class defender, and you notice that both Baresi and Maldini benefited from defensive systems and still weren't that much better when compared to many of the other world class defenders of their respective eras. (But what Baresi and Maldini do have a lot in my opinion, is great longevity.)

 

EDIT:

To rephrase or slightly edit a few of my admittedly harsh comments. I try to write as fast as I can and as accurate as I can, but very often I tend to be overly harsh/critical as a result of the directness that I need to be able to write my observations with the few minutes that I have as of late. With that in mind: the post above this one is relatively subpar in my opinion, albeit it does get the essential point across.

In fact, I honestly cannot think of another defender, not Maldini, that used his arms and upper body as much as Maldini. Or for that matter, a defender who used his arms and upper body as expertly as Maldini did. And there is artistry in that too, absolutely, but at the same time, I'm pretty sure that Maldini exploited his style of defending in a way that few other defenders would've been permitted to. Hugging-and-stopping an opponent that had already gotten past him, is just as bad as a tackle-from-behind, and Maldini did that a lot and he was rarely yellow carded for those plays.

I should have added that I think Maldini off-the-ball is a stylish defender to watch, but his off-the-ball style isn't exactly what I would describe as elegant. For example, Alessandro Nesta and Ronald Koeman are elegant off-the-ball, in a way that Maldini (while still stylish) was not. This is essentially what I was trying to depict with the above quote--Maldini was less of a tackler and more of a grabber, more of a defender who uses his arms to grab, hold, hug, etc. It is stylish to watch when done as expertly as Maldini did it, but in my opinion it will never be quite as elegant in appearance as a well-timed precise tackle.

 

Maldini's form in the 2003-04 is one of the reasons I started collecting games from when he was in his prime at 25-28 years of age. He was very impressive for his age in 2003-04, so I was very surprised to find a less consistent and in many ways a less direct defender in 1996-97 and 1997-98. My impression is: Football truly is a team sport. Either that, or 34 year old Maldini was actually playing at a higher level than 28-29 year old Maldini.

On a different note: I was interested in his 1996-97 and 1997-98 games, because I assumed that 28-29 year old Maldini would be more or less at his best, regardless of AC Milan's form as a club.

 

EDIT:

The above quotes are obviously a very harsh, even ridiculous, exaggeration on Maldini's main strength. In my defense: I've watched a good number of Maldini's games in two of his less impressive seasons, so I'm not hating on Maldini on the basis of nothing, but I'm definitely exaggerating a great deal. I mean, Maldini did to some insignificant degree benefitted from his fame in terms of not getting some yellow cards that the average defender would get, but that didn't happened anywhere near as consistently (significantly) as I implied throughout my unfair narrative. If it were as easy as simply exploiting upper body strength, we would've seen a lot more Maldinis in the 1990s--obviously, it requires a great deal of talent to know how to expertly use those physical strengths to full effect like Maldini did.

Overall, the quotes above could and probably should be rephrased into the following summary: Maldini was better at defending with his upper body than he was at defending with the lower half of his body, so of course he tackled less than most of the other legendary defenders; in other words, it wasn't purely his positioning that made him such a great defender, it was in my opinion primarily the ability that he had with his upper body, that he could grab, hold, hug, push, grab some more, push slightly off-balance again, etcetera, and it was very difficult for referees to see if Maldini was fouling or not, because Maldini made it look remarkably subtle, effortless, natural, when he was in fact applying brute force. That is a demonstrable talent, but again, I wonder how it would work out in the modern game where the player carrying the ball will simply dive at the first sign of Maldini going in for the grab-and-contain signature of his.

 

It is of course not a total surprise he was 'shielded' better between 2002 and 2004. With Nesta as acquisition doing the donkey work; Shevchenko applying pressure up front; world class final ball passers Rui Costa and 'Il Professore' Seedorf (on youtube you can find great assists); a legendary distributor and prompter as Pirlo.

That also opens up possibilities for Maldini himself when he wanted to pass a ball. I think that his passing improved after the age of 30. Not that it became really spectacular though, and one can see he often dribbled the ball to a specific zone from which he launched his long balls (i.e. a zone and place on the field where he felt comfortable to do so, and a defender has that luxury - because opposition doesn't apply pressure or as a created free man in midfield).

In the same way it would be incorrect too to highlight Batistuta's exploits around that time. He scored 5 of his 7 goals against Milan in these two seasons. I didn't see that as options for his best games as well (in the way of his matches vs Manchester United, as mentioned in the thread).

I thought about picking Batistuta for the birth year 1969.

 

@leadleader
I've just watched a few of Maldini's matches on YouTube. Not the full matches but his own personal actions. I didn't watch them systematically i.e particular seasons but rather random ones, from his 1990 match vs Napoli to his 2003 match vs Juventus.
Immediately what strikes me is his anticipatory skills, his positioning is IMO very close to perfect and when he isn't well positioned, his tackles are so crisp (but this is subjective).
He does this slide tackle where he sort of hooks the ball and it stays in his possession.

From the clips I watched, I can't see the hug and contain style, but then I considered someone wouldn't include that in his personal highlights.

Regarding him vs Nesta, Puyol et al, I genuinely think he was a better defender at their respective bests, he was harder to beat, by an attacker. I think Nesta had the better career as a CB as he was pretty much always in good to decent form unless he was injured, and even in older age could have his moments against Messi, whereas Maldini I remember having some meh seasons when he was in his prime when he initially played as a CB.

Here are some combined highlights for them





Of course these are not necessarily their best performances, but they are close to when they were performing at their best as CBs. Maldini for me is the more anticipatory defender, he's the one dependent on positioning, Nesta engages a lot and goes into tackles and clearly he is elite at that.

And finally, regarding Maldini being in good defensive systems. It is true in a way but I've scarcely seen a more "suicidal" high press than Sacchi's Milan. Those are not really ideal systems for defensive football. Crucially though, he was just as good in Sacchi's system as he was in Capello's



These tactics put a lot of pressure on the defensive players and require perfect coordination but also a really high level individually

 

This is one of the very, very few games that exist for John Charles (much less than Puskas or Albert even).



Same channel has also this very interesting video I noticed.

 

In terms of 10/10 grades, I am now reading these series of books, and have made it through until the end of part 3 (until end of 1975):






It does have some interesting parts that are well-researched and especially some insight on the earlier years. It has also some things on why they refused to play the Intercontinental Cup in 1971 and 1973, with things I hadn't fully realized yet (outside of the violence).

Anyway, until the end of 1975 there had been one 10 graded performance. On the scale of: 8 is for the apprentice, 9 for the master and 10 for 'the human placeholder of God (for one day)'.

"After nine matchdays Ajax stands on place 6, on a six points distance from the table leader [two points for a win] [...]. In the home game against PSV, on 30 october 1970, makes Cruijff his return. It is the first of a long stint where number 14 is his lucky number. The inducement for this is that Mühren has lost his shirt and Cruijff says him: "then you take my number right?" Mühren receives accordingly the number 9 jersey while Cruijff debuts with number 14 - back then far from a status icon and with authorities not appreciating, even banning, his gesture. Barely a month later it is clear for everyone that the star is back at his highest level. In the home match against AZ'67 six goals are scored by Cruijff [as throughout his whole Ajax career, no penalties - PvH]. 'Voetbal International' judges his performance with a 10."

If I encounter some more 10 graded performances, I will note.

The next player to score 6 goals was Van Basten in december 1985, when Cruijff was trainer. Of course, scoring goals doesn't necessarily mean a 10.

 

https://m.lequipe.fr/Football/Actualites/Ils-ont-eu-10-dans-l-equipe/510114

They don't say since which year they started to grade games of the various competitions.

 

For league games the mid 1980s is possible, but have doubts about the World Cup and Champions League then. World Cup maybe since 1990 or 1994. The 1986 edition had a few displays that could have been graded with a 10 (Belanov etc. not by definition but like Neymar vs Dijon it is possible).

 

Maybe I am wrong but wouldn't surprise me if the Champions League ratings (outside French teams) don't go further back than the early or mid 00s.