Neither Thierry Henry or Gareth bale are even remotely comparable to (peak)Cristiano Ronaldo in dribbling or technical ability. Cr7 was directly compared to George Best when he was 21 years old and at 23 years old all timers (ie bobby Charlton,Johan Cruyff,Denis law etc) said he had surpassed George Best. at 21 years old Gareth bale was playing sporadically for Tottenham hotspur with no defined position(left back/winger?) and Henry was flopping in serie a. Now don't get me wrong both Henry and bale achieved a whole lot more after they were 21 years I think when it is all said and done bale will go down as THE best British player since probably Charlton and g.best and Henry for me(as I have said many a time)is an all time modern striker the top 5 all time complete strikers pre 1980 are Pele,puskas,Eusebio,muller and Kocsis and post 1980 R9,MVB,Romario,TH14 and arguably Luis suarez(although I would say he faces very stiff competition from ibrahimovic,Hugo Sanchez,Shevchenko excluding his Chelsea disaster and a few others) having said this Cr7 is an all time great(meaning I can only count on 1 hand the amount of footballers who I know for certain were better/more complete than Cristiano Ronaldo) Going by you preferred method of ranking dribblers c.ronaldo was a combination of both B and C(like Messi but at a much lower level in close control and overall technical ability but superior in athleticism and power dribbling) in Manchester United (2007-2009)and his early Madrid (2009-2010)CR7 was the very rare type player who you could give the ball to anywhere on the pitch and he could create a goal scoring opportunity(scoring,assist,shot on goal etc) and if you are talking about skill,flair,entertainment there were hardly any better(meaning all time and both European AND south American born players) now of course if somebody(not necessarily saying you)only started following cr7 post 2014 then I can perfectly understand why he would think my comments are extremely far fetched or maybe I even crazy but I can assure you there was a time when Cristiano was an absolute and almost incomparable force on the football field note: there is a thread made specifically for discussing Ronaldo's dribbling ability and technique and if you like we can continue finishing the discussion there. I will post one comp i made to give you a general idea of what I am talking about. (His best ever season in terms of dribbling 2006/07 aged 21 to 22 years old)
If video counts as "have seen" then Garrincha and George Best. If you mean watched live at the time, then Maradona.
everybody knows the messis, maradonas, ronaldinhos are the best dribblers. but i want to bring something new to the thread. ali karimi is the best dribbler to ever come from asia. i believe he is a top 10 dribbler in the world of all time, if we are only taking into account raw talent. he was one of the most graceful players, very intelligent, and a joy to watch. he was called the asian maradona. he had immense potential, he was supposed to replace ballack as bayerns main attacking player, but he got injured and was lazy/unmotivated and eventually left europe. he was wanted by atletico madrid at the age of 19, but again he was lazy and refused the challenge. iran vs ireland wcq playoffs 2001:
Great contribution to the thread but for me some of what you said is hugely exaggerated (especially about him being top 10 all time) maybe you never heard of yousef alThunayan( played in the 1980s from Saudi Arabia)? If we can completely ignore the quality of opposition he faced(which was poor at best) his dribbling talent/technique made el fenomeno almost look like a pub player @PDG1978 @ko242 this guy was technically almost perfect I know the "quality" of teams he faced definitely made him look better then he was but a so called average Joe couldn't pull of 95% of the skills and dribbles he performed
Excellent video (as was the Karimi one), and he certainly seems a very elusive and agile dribbler and potentially one of the most entertaining players in general. I'd never known about him to be honest, wheras I did know Karimi vaguely.
Did you watch all the video? Some of his dribbling skills vs Bundesliga teams, Roma, Germany NT etc.. Regardless of the opposition his dribbling was always world class, and he played against all kind of teams, ranging from "poor", so at Asian level, to European teams. I wouldn't say top 10 dribbler of all times but still probably among the top dribblers, at least top 20 dribbler in his era
i didnt include him due to the opposition... a lot of players would also be able to show off much better technique if they had the chance to play against such weak opposition... 1980s saudi league... and he did not do much for saudi, whereas karimi destroyed the top asian teams and even teams like roma and german NT. but yea i agree that he is quite talented.. but i personally dont think more than karimi. perhaps i exaggerated with the top 10 comment, but surely your comment that al thunayan makes "el phenomeno look like a pub player" is more of an exaggeration. he is definitely not as good as el phenomeno at dribbling, neither is karimi.
Thanks for posting this! Brings back some memories. I first heard of Karimi maybe 10-11 years ago on a PES forum from another Persian poster , so I followed a lot of his career. Definitely up there with some of the best dribblers I have seen for sure.
hehe now you reminded me of PES6/2007. i remember karimi was starting attacking mid on bayern in that game and his dribbling was rated very highly so it was enjoyable to run around and score with him. (that was also one of the best PES games, my favourite after PES2011). your username also reminds me of overmars in fifa 98 (best fifa game ever).
Here is a comp I made that I would like to share with this thread. Technical football of the absolute highest quality . When it comes to athletic dribbling runs CR7 is in a category of his own, in skills he is in the top 3-4 of ALL TIME alongside Maradona,fenomeno,Ronaldinho,there are simply no skills worth doing that he hasn't already done(panna,elastico,sombrero,nutmeg elastico in the same move ,step over,close control dribbling,power runs,sombrero with his upper back(a skill that is probably unique to him) etc A top 20 all time dribbling list that doesn't include CR7 is imo invalid/baseless. Not long after I joined this forum a certain poster told me he knew of 50 brazillian players who were both better dribblers and technically superior!!! At least 46 of them would have to be living on Mars(like I said from what i have watched only 3 brazillian dribbling greats can match CR7,dribblers like zico,rivelino,Romario were spectacular in their own right but they just never had the same skill set as the Portuguese). We can talk all day about whether CR7 supposedly had to train harder than other greats to reach an all time level but what cannot be disputed is what he could with the ball is almost unprecedented in the history of the game
Cristiano's peak may have been amongst the best of all time, but he had poor longevity in this department unfortunately.
I have to agree with Boavista1976, Garrincha had some kind of super powers in dribbling i never saw in anybody else. The way he used to 'dance' around the ball and the sudden changes of rhythm have no equals in my opinion.
I think it's important to just judge the players against their own peers. Given the historical context, Garrincha was indeed great. However, lets not pretend like the defenders he faced then were anywhere near as good as the defenders of today. I've seen many videos of him, including this one, before, and each time, what amazed me more than his dribbling, was the poor quality of defending.
I agree with you, that's why players from different ages should never be compared in my opinion. Said that, what you say could be used in favor of people like Garrincha and others (thinking about Rivelino for dribbling), in the sense that they really stood out against their opponents, defining new standards for everyone else. Thinking about people like Lewis, Bubka, Phelps, Merckx, Senna etc etc.
I admit that I am not a big Garrincha believer (or fan) but have you seen him play against English and Italian opponents of that time? For the historical context it matters too how the defenders and defensive formations themselves were perceived at that particular time (by which I do not say Garrincha had a walk in the park). The recent passing of Carlos Alberto made me remember these articles that I posted previously:
I agree. The old greats are not great in absolute terms. A good dribbler today would be better than Garrincha already, just on pure athleticism alone. However, every generation stand on the should of giants. Garrincha was one such giant.
I’m not much of a fan of Garrincha, more than anything, because he supposedly suffered from some degree of mental retardation, which makes me not feel confident about his mental ability to read and react as quickly as the modern game requires. That being said, his role was a rather non-intellectual one in the first place, so perhaps my critique is neither accurate nor fair on Garrincha, but again, it’s very difficult to say either way because of the lack of proper video. In any case, I think that if Garrincha played today, he’d be faster and his diet would be better, so even today he would definitely be a world class dribbler – dribbling is really one of those things that are timeless, in my opinion. Iniesta is a good example of that, he’s a great dribbler first and foremost because his remarkable mobility with the ball (which is a physical quality, more so than a purely “technical” quality), not because of his speed with the ball (which also is a physical quality, more so than a purely technical quality). Garrincha’s mobility (not necessarily his speed) was a problem for defenders – it would still be a problem for defenders today. But yes, tactics are overall far better today than in 1962, and Garrincha will almost certainly not be allowed to get away with some of his tricks e.g. he would sometimes dribble past an opponent, to then immediately stop in his tracks (therefore intentionally allowing the opponent to catch up with him), to then re-dribble past that same opponent – it’s fairly obvious that Garricha would not be doing any of that against any good teams, if he played today. But if Garrincha played today (or at any point over the past 13 years), I think he would’ve been a better dribbler than CR7 ever was, simply because I think that dribbling is timeless, and it’s plainly evident that Garrincha’s dribbling ability (when measured on the basis of the proper context) was arguably superior to CR7’s dribbling ability, which declined heavily after CR7 lost some of his agility and after CR7 developed more muscle (and less mobility). Furthermore, Garrincha’s role would be specifically as a wide forward, so he would benefit from perfecting his dribbling season after season – unlike CR7, who transitioned early in his career into a more goal-oriented role, which reduced his chances to dribble, which required him to build more muscle, and which ultimately clearly played a factor in CR7’s decline as a dribbler. Overall, I think Garrincha’s dribbling ability would be more or less at the same level as Hazard and Iniesta, or possibly on the same level as Messi, as well. Of course, Messi’s acceleration and finishing ability makes him a more dangerous dribbler than players like Hazard.
From an athletic point of view i agree, but don't underestimate what he could do with the ball.... he was a phenomenon.
Yes, if someone of great "nature" such as Garrincha receives the same "nurture" of today, then one could imagine him being one of the best. However, from what I understand, he was another one of those "flawed" talent, and the modern game is very unforgiving to those. First of all, football used to rely so much on natural talent. Due to archaic coaching, tactics, support, sports science, etc, the main determinant of a player's value was his natural talent. What tools did a defender in the 50s had to combat a Garrincha? Could he rely on tactics? No. If he worked harder, how much would it had helped given the level of coaching back then. Was fitness training at a point where someone can work harder to physically dominate Garrincha? I don't know. I'm just not sure there was a lot a defender of inferior talent can do. It wasn't their fault. How successful would a Gary Neville be in the 1950 and 60s? At the same time, I think we're making too many assumptions that someone of great natural talent will simply do better in modern football, if given the same advantages. I'm not sure it's as clear cut as this. Notice how many flawed geniuses there were in the old days. I understand Garrincha was one, but if not, definitely the likes of Jose Moreno and George Best were. Contrast that with the modern era. How many talented individuals do we know that didn't make it, because they didn't have the personality to? I could probably name a dozen from the top of my head. Just think about how professional the likes of Maldini and Giggs had to be to have a career so long. How competitive do CR7 and Messi have to be to stay at the top. Today, there is literally ZERO elite player who doesn't match their talent with equal professionalism, hardwork, and determination. Think of the top 10 players in the world. Is there a single one of them who is known for being unprofessional? Would Garrincha make it in this world? We can't just assume he will, since we know many don't. Worst case, the "flawed" talent becomes another Mario Balotelli. Best case, he becomes a Ronaldinho, reaching no.1 in the world, but can't sustain it for very long, nor reaching the heights of someone who combines talent with grit, like Messi. Furthermore, the top level managers of today simply don't accept lack professionalism. George Best wouldn't survive under a Pep or a Mourinho. That's two of the best he couldn't work with, which drastically reduces his chances of winning silverware. Or what if they choose to become a star in a less elite side, where things might be less demanding? It could be even worse! The likes of Dortmund under Tuchel, Liverpool under Klopp, and At. Madrid under Simeone are some of the most demanding teams in the world, which is how they're able to compete with the elite teams of far more resources. We must be very careful about assuming that the great talents of the past will simply take full advantage of the "nurture" that modern football offers, and must keep in mind that lesser talents now have far more to work with to combat the greater talents.
I think that the nowadays players get a lot of advantages from enhanced athletic capabilities given by "special" substances, let' say integrators... Just compare their bodies and muscular mass with the ones from the past, It would be really naive to assume that players in the 80s and 70 and earlier decades didn't take it seriously as nowadays ones and the difference in their body structure is just by different training styles...
I think there's some problem with that notion. One of the well-known benefits 1960s Brazil had was that it was pound-for-pound more ahead of the curve than most other countries. They were the first national team to work with a psychologist. They were together with West Germany the first to work with a dietist. In particular their edge on England has been extremely well documented: http://www.espnfc.com/blog/fifa/243...t-joao-havelange-did-much-for-the-global-game Later, near the end of the 1960s, they got to work with the NASA. This was something the Americans (Kissinger in particular) offered because of geopolitical and strategic reasons. Of course, there were (many) other factors too like a once in a century player as Pelé, a six months preparation and a once in a century administrator/politician as Havelange*). But for their time it was - without question - anything but "archaic". The re-runs of the great 1970 Carlos Alberto goal reminded me that I've always thought Brazil only won that World Cup because of the climate— Beyond The Last Man (@BeyondTLM) October 26, 2016 I do agree that "facts" show footballers run more nowadays, with higher intensity and sometimes less time on the ball. This decrease in time is also significantly aided by better pitches and a harmonisation of playing standards. Referees have become more professional too instead of maleable and impressionable amateurs. At the same time, there is plenty of evidence around showing a marked decrease of contact injuries and ankle or knee injuries. It is really a stellar decrease. Furthermore, there's also circumstantial evidence about a decline in creativity/improvisation and the basic first touch ("glue on boots") by players, as well as a smaller talent pool (especially in Europe). Like I said, I am not a believer in Garrincha. By my reckoning all of Sivori, Pelé, Best and Cruijff were clearly better dribblers than Garrincha. That's my impression. Even so, one needs to judge Garrincha against defenses who were in his time perceived as good and adequate. Think about what Pelé himself said in his mid 1970s documentary: 1) the 1970s had turned into congested defenses in the middle whereas the early to mid 1960s had less space on the flanks (this would speak in favor of Garrincha). 2) in Europe it is much less about "joy". Honestly, how does Garrincha look against Italian defenses? Great marksman as Eusebio and Muller have a ratio below 0.50 (and 0.40) against (mostly inferior) Italian teams. *) Yes, Havelange was a first class thug and Macchiavellian manipulator who can play HoC better than Kevin Spacey but his crafstmanship cannot be denied. In the 1990s he fell out with Pelé by the way, in the late 1980s he had his reservations about Maradona and he never liked Cruijff (declassified 1980s documents prove this).
Luiz Pereira talking at the start of the 1976-77 season. Which Atletico Madrid won. Notice what he says about 'European' football.
Messi is hors categorie. My favorite dribbler right now, is Marcelo. He is amazing. Dribbles more than pretty much everybody, with huge effectiveness and in areas where he creates advantages for his team. Quaresma in his prime Porto days was pretty impressive too. Savicevic was really good.