As you probably know, I wouldn't be saying the best CM/AM's are the ones that score the most but thinking back to earlier times it's probably fair to mention Terry McDermott as scoring plenty from there too (and John Wark maybe before he went to Liverpool actually). But yeah, Keane's totals at Forest were pretty high for a midfielder, certainly a box to box one.
Figo was almost 28 when they signed him. That is age wise always risky, from both a fitness point of view and flexibility perspective. It's well explained in a number of books with a lot of data. Then also compounded by moving to the arch-rivals and him being Portuguese. Real Madrid was at that time also not known for their work-ethic off the field and facilities like for ex. Milanello. Roy Keane himself said recently about Real Madrid though (compared with Manchester): "The weather and the training might have given me another lease of life, another two years of playing". Yes, but was even more attacking than say Scholes or Vieira IMHO. The 'EPL 20' book shows him as taking about 1.23 shots per 90 minutes (1992-2012) compared with Scholes at 0.91 per 90 minutes. Vieira was on 0.44 per 90 minutes, Roy Keane interestingly at 0.54 shots per 90 minutes (which excludes the first two seasons at Forest, as pre-EPL). Lampard has 173 EPL goals, a fantastic number, but includes also 43 penalties. Excluding penalties and excluding the current season he's on an average of 6.74 goals per season (in the league). Keane didn't take any penalty.
Yes, interesting. How about Lampard's peak 3 or 4 years at Chelsea? Like I say that link I gave you for Forest should show Webb's totals from 85/86 to 88/89. Maybe they compare ok after all. I'd not be completely sure on the data for shots per 90 minutes from early seasons. If you recall, the author kindly responded to me but said early assists were from newspapers and some footage IIRC (Bohinen's tally for 94/95 was too low by a few we established, even if Roy got as many or even one more than listed). So maybe shots per game stats also start in later years?
rightly so If only counting goals, then Lampard is certainly the best CM in EPL with highest goals, and Gerard is 2nd Even though Lampard and Gerard played a bit like AM in their best years mid 2000's (say 20-30% career) Scholes was a AM (70%). Among the AM Pires had the highest scoring % (GPG) in EPL
Yeah, if counting wingers as AM's that'd be true about Pires. I think he actually peaked as a player, before his injury, scoring less gpg but assisting more interestingly. But he became a very effective scorer.
2009-10: 22 goals, 10 penalties, 1.48 shots per 90 minutes 2005-06: 16 goals, 4 penalties, 1.86 shots per 90 minutes 2012-13: 15 goals, 5 penalties, 1.89 shots per 90 minutes 2004-05: 13 goals, 3 penalties, 1.77 shots per 90 minutes "Shots per 90 minutes" means btw 'shots on goal'.
Thanks. Webb, in only open play, was in the same ballpark then for 4 seasons at Forest: http://www.bridportred.com/1980s/1985-1986/1985-1986 results & teams.htm (14 in 38 games) http://www.bridportred.com/1980s/1986-1987/1986-1987 results & teams.htm (14 in 32 games) http://www.bridportred.com/1980s/1987-1988/1987-1988 results & teams.htm (13 in 40 games) http://www.bridportred.com/1980s/1988-1989/1988-1989 results & teams.htm (only 6 in 36 games, but 14 in 54 over all competitions)
Thanks. I had actually the comparison with Keane in mind (who had 8-8-6 goals for Forest in his league seasons between 1990-1993). Funny that Keane did not reach those numbers again once he moved to a bigger club, while Lampard ofc eventually improved at Chelsea in comparison with West Ham. Which the 'shots per 90 minutes' stat also sort of shows.
Yes, I think relied more on the physical qualities like pace and stamina associated with a young player to score his goals. But eventually at Man Utd of course he had a more restricted role too. Lampard had good stamina but maybe improved his positional awareness and also even though those shots per 90 minutes stats are not high by todays standards surely, he did take shots from the edge of the box moreso than for West Ham even though he'd shown he could be effective with them there too. He was playing for a top of the table club too of course, in a 3 man midfield. Keane, except for the last season, at Forest played for a top half team at least who except in that season did score plenty of goals generally. At Man Utd he immediately had a team where the strikers and wingers did most of the attacking I suppose but as you pointed out Ince did end up with more goals when they played together.
Meanwhile, Webb suffered quite a serious injury early in his Man Utd career and became more just a passer after that I think and wasn't a first choice player for much longer.
that's very spot on to Lampard's strength. A smart, intelligent player with great long shots, positioning, awareness, stamina to make up for his ball skills (just good) - plus he is a very very good PK taker His long shot in open play and PK could only rival by Koeman of 80's
Maybe we use different definitions, but I wouldn't say Gérson was a box-to-box midfielder, but a deep-lying playmaker.
I've always thought that Dave Mackay was more a defensive midfielder, in contrast of his compatriot Billy Bremner (who I'd classified as a true box-to-box midfielder).
Well, by consensus, most people would have Frank Rijkaard and Lothar Matthaeus as the clear top two. To me, personally, I like Vieira best, but I am very biased. I've watched him hundreds of times, and it was always mesmerizing how important he was to the Arsenal of teams of 97-06. He wasn't just someone who won the ball back, and gave it to better attackers. He was one of the attackers who was playing with the ball, and making intelligent moves. He was playing football with the likes of Bergkamp, Overmars, Pires, and Henry, and he was every bit as comfortable as they were. Vieira wasn't playing Henry's football, Vieira was the reason Henry could play his football. Henry's direct style would not be possible without the high tempo plays of Vieira. The team did struggle at times though to play any other way. Being one-dimensional has always been a clear Wenger's weakness. What I thought was strange was how he did show a number of times being slow on the turn, defensively. He's got pace and power, but seems to lack agility. Yet, I've seen him use his ball control to change direction very quickly. So why was he able to do so with the ball, but not without it?
Alan Ball Billy Bremner Liam Brady Bryan Robson In the modern game there aren't many "box to box" midfielders. There are defensive or attacking midfielders. If a team is winning or losing they can bring on one of a group of substitutes to adapt to their requirements. When only one sub was allowed on the bench, midfield players had to be capable defensive ball winners, creative playmakers and supporting attackers.
The specialization has simply moved from the forward to the midfield, at least that's the case in the EPL. Back in the 4-4-2 days, the forwards were specialized. You could have a big man/small man combo. A goal-scorer/creator combo. While the midfield duo was usually quite well-rounded. Now, in the age of 3 midfielders, and one striker, the striker has to be well rounded, like Suarez or Lewandowski, and the midfielders, as you mentioned, more specialized.
Gareth Bale !? Gareth Bale's new 6 year deal signed today has just raised the bar money wise - £350,000 per week NET - so they're paying him around £700,000 per week before deductions apparently
Box to box? Matthäus, Neeskens, Bryan Robson. Young Schuster, Lampard, Gerrard, Tardelli, Tigana, Bremner. Falcao, Mikhailichenko, Masopust, Coluna, Acimovic, Susic. Just some examples of do-it-all midfielders. PD: Vieira, Davids, Keane. That's my ranking regarding the main subject of the topic.
By the way, would you place Paulo Roberto Falcao in a similar mold as Fernando Redondo or another kind of box-to-box midfielder? And what about Danny Blanchflower? From what I've seen of him seems to be a legitimate deep-lying playmaker in the style of Andrea Pirlo, but in some publications I read he's pointed out as a box-to-box midfielder, what I find strange because he seems to have been a non-adept player to defensive tasks.
His starting position was the one of a deep-lying playmaker (that's why Liedholm dropped di Bartolomei to defence), but his area of influence was really wide. He usually arrived near the box, almost as a number 10. This was helped by the fact of Falcao being paired always with a real box-to-box midfielder who was ready to cover for him (Cerezo or Prohaska). If I had to highlight something about Falcao it would be his ability to roam and be always in a perfect position to organize the team. He was a pretty vertical player, especially with Roma.
Patrick Vieira is, in my opinion, the number 1 b2b midfielder, and it's not even that much of a competition. His tackling was incredible, he ran for days, he was strong, a good passer, a good shot with great vision and positioning in the attack. He was bugged by a lot of little injuries because he got tackled so hard, but on his day there was no one quite like him.