The "before the tournaments" no-call

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RespectTheGame, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. RespectTheGame

    May 6, 2013
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Had a girls HS game a couple days ago, last one of the season, meaningless in that tournament draws are already done.

    Had one other caution during the game much earlier. With 30 seconds left in the game there is some kicking going on right off the touchline to try and clear a ball, I don't see anything foul-worthy but do hear a shin guard click so one of the players did get nailed (3-4 on a sideline trying to clear a ball) in the shin.

    Not five seconds later as the ball squirts out, a player coming out of that scrum gives a hard kick to the back of the leg of a player with position on the ball. In my view, it was a clear retaliation for what just happened a few seconds before. It was not IMO a really legitimate play on the ball.

    SHOULD have been a straight red. I felt it. I wanted to.

    I wimped out.

    With 30 seconds left in a meaningless game, i didn't feel momentary loss of focus should result in her sitting out her tournament game. the girl that got kicked was satisfied with the caution, and the last 30 seconds elapsed without incident.

    I'm still debating my choice. Do you let these kind of things influence your card selection on "orange" fouls?
     
  2. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Your screen name should tell you the answer, Luke!

    PH
     
  3. cmonref

    cmonref Member

    Oct 16, 2016
    Stillwater
    These straight red card type fouls are more likely to happen in those meaningless end of the season games because those players believe there will be no repercussions for their actions.
     
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  4. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly this. Then they will also think maybe it's acceptable and do it during the season.
     
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  5. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    I think you answered your own question, but don't beat yourself up over it. Next time just do it. We don't *give* cards, players *earn* them.
     
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  6. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I can say that, at least in our state, red cards have implications and the state high school association wants them given when they are, as threeputzzz says, 'earned.' Here, the first red card of the season to a school's "program" (varsity, JV, JV2/freshman are all combined but the genders are separated) is a $50 fine to the school, in addition to the game suspension. The second red card is a $100 fine, and it goes on from there. Further, any red card in the team's last game of the season doubles the fine that would otherwise be imposed. This is true in for all sports sanctioned by our high school activities association, although the fine and suspension penalties were generated from soccer and the doubling of fines provision is directly linked to one particular soccer game, which is known among officials as the Michael Alben rule, after the referee in that game. (Five reds in the last 13 seconds of the game, having already given two earlier.)

    Subsequent punishments and pending games should play no part in your decision. You have no role in that. Just follow the rules in the book, which says, give the card.
     
  7. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    My two cents: Meaningless games and playoffs about to start should not affect card color -- as others have said, that's not our role. But in your post, you seem to still waffle -- here you say it was orange and elsewhere you say it should have been red. If it should have been red, absolutely, IMHO, you should have sent her off. If it was truly orange, and the temperature of the game would accept the caution (as appears to be true), and there were 30 seconds left, those factors could make me conclude a yellow and AC would suffice.
     
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  8. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    socal lurker brings to mind the description of the offense. He makes a valid point about taking the temperature of the game. In my experience, what you describe could have easily turned into a mass confrontation among players who think they had nothing to lose. YMMV.
     
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  9. Errol V

    Errol V Member+

    Mar 30, 2011
    For what it's worth, two weeks ago, as we are coasting toward State Cup, I sent off a U18B player in the last 90 seconds of a match they were losing 3-0. It was a stupid foul by a player who I later heard (a friend has a son on the team) had never before been sent off. The game did not need it, but it was called for, and I think it was probably a good lesson for him.
     
  10. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    But it sounds like the Game needed it
     
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  11. SOCCERREFEREE101

    Aug 5, 2016


    How does that work if one of the schools is not a member of the state association? In my state high schools are not required to be a member of the state high school association to participate in high school sports. Basically being a member only get you into post season tournament. Member schools can compete against non-Member schools. Referees have liability insurance as long as one of the schools is a member school.
     
  12. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    In our state, every high school is a member of the state association. There are some schools so tiny that they have to co-op with another school to form teams. I don't know if they are required by law to belong or if member schools are prohibited from playing non-member schools from within the state. Our liability insurance, however, extends to not only high school games but any soccer game we officiate, although I think they determined that indoor soccer is not covered as being a different sport.
     
  13. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I had something similar a few years ago. The foul was just dangerous enough that he had to be sent off but it was clear to me that it was lack of skill combine with an excess of enthusiasm that had led to the foul rather than any malice. I had earlier cautioned #4 on that team and that was the number I originally saw and decided to give the second caution and spare him the suspension. Unfortunately for him, he finished turning towards me and I saw he was #14, so it was the straight red instead.

    Is that wrong? Probably. His team was poor enough that they were almost certainly going to lose their first, and therefore only, tournament game. That really shouldn't be our problem, but it's only human to consider it from time to time.
     
  14. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    The OP was asking about how upcoming playoffs effect any decisions about cards. They shouldn't, but they do. I imagine every ref has a couple of 'Boy, I should have shown that card' incidents stuck in his head. Two of mine are from the same game, a couple of years ago, and also involve the last game of HS season, with playoff next week.

    I had had the team a couple of times already. They were a mixed bag, with a jerk coach. Both incidents featured a different Captain--which has colored my opinions of captains ever since, but that is a different story.

    Early in the first half Captain One takes a YC for obvious tactical foul. No arguments. Then with the clock ticking down in the half, he is looking at a breakaway counter attack from the center circle --defense pulled way up. As he is running to corral the ball, it checks up funny on the artificial turf. He contorts his running motion and does a quick Chariots of Fire arm circle to bat the shoulder high ball forward. Whistle. My brain thinks: Playoffs next week, give him a break. One or two defenders suggest that is surely a YC. I tell them to let me make the calls. Last seconds tick off before the ball is retrieved. I walk up to Captain One and say, "You are the luckiest person on the field." He says, "That's just the way I run." I think, Dude, just apologize, and I will feel better about giving you a break.

    Early in second half, Captain Two pulls the Statue--runs from 6 yard beside the ball, to 6 inches in front of it.
    "Back up."
    "To where."
    "10 yards."
    "I don't know where that is, show me."
    "Start backing up, I'll let you know."
    Backs up two small steps and stops.
    "That's not 10."
    "I am bad at math. You have to show me."
    Me to self, Is he playing some learning disabled card? No, he is just being a dick.
    Whistle!! Arm cross. YC. Jog to bench.
    Jerk Coach: "He has to ask for 10."
    Me: "No, he doesn't coach. The team that commits a foul is obligated to give 10 yards.
    Jerk Coach: "Well, then it depends on the definition of 'obligation'."
    Me to self: Are you f*cking kidding me. Jog back to position.

    15 minutes later Captain Two does it again!!!
    Statue.
    "Back up!!"
    "Show me where."
    Me: Key midfielder, playoffs next week: wimp out. 'Manage' him back 10 yards.

    Playoffs start next week... As humans, it has to effect our decisions somewhat; even though as refs, it shouldn't.
    So, maybe Captain One gets a pass for deliberate handling to create an attack.
    But, Captain Two, if anyone ever does something that blatant, I don't care if its a World Cup qualifier coming up, I swear, I will......
     
  15. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I am just enough of a smart a.. to have told the guy, "Okay. I'll show you where you can stand. Follow me." Then take him straight to the bench, show the card, etc.

    "Show me where" That's kind of a player version of the referee's "One more word and it's a card." The last words of the Lone Ranger's brother were "Go back! It's a trap!"
     
  16. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member+

    Oct 10, 2011
    Arkansas
    I thought that was Admiral Ackbar
     
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  17. Raider025

    Raider025 Member

    May 13, 2015
    As a JV official, the games I work don't have playoff implications (obviously), but I find myself somewhat in the same position. I've had a few incidents (hell I had one on Monday, the last day of the season) where, if it weren't the end of the season, I probably would've given a yellow. But then the thought of "the teams already losing 3-0, last game of the season, give him a break" creeps into my head. I hate admitting it, but these things happen...
     
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  18. timtheref

    timtheref Member

    Aug 23, 2010
    Sometimes it's about your reputation too. Last year, D2 women's college. Winner goes to conference playoffs, loser goes home. Home team up 1-0 on controversial goal with 7 seconds left. Visiting player (a senior) doesn't like a no call and tells me how terrible I am, peppered with profanity. I dispensed what she had earned. Did she give up more than 7 seconds of her college career? Nope. But guess what. I saw the team a couple times this year, and I got 0 lip from players or bench. That moment set up a reputation that's paid dividends for me in future games. Worth considering. BTW, same idea worked when I tossed a kid for a second caution after the final whistle in a tournament game his team lost a couple years ago. He was a junior. In our state, 2nd cautions in high school have no suspension. So what was the point? I saw him next year and our interactions were much different.
     
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  19. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    This is exactly true.
    A well-known referee instructor, one of the founders of the erstwhile National Referee Program always said
    "a referee will make his own reputation." He meant either good or bad.

    PH
     
  20. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Last year on the last day of Texas HS regular season I gave a red card to a home team player for a straight on studs mid shin challenge. The next day at youth soccer my ARs were talking with the assignor and the conversation went like this.
    Assignor: So [DaytonRef] gave a red card to [home team] yesterday.
    AR1: Yep.
    Assignor: I guess [DaytonRef] will be scratched by [home team] next year.
    AR1: Maybe not. The coach was yelling, "How can you go in like that and let the ref make that decision?"

    Sadly, I will never know if I was blacklisted by that coach as I've moved.
     
  21. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I love how the threat of being "scratched" will make some referees change the way they ref at certain times, or for certain teams etc.

    Seriously if you are that afraid of not having to work games why do you do it at all.

    By the way not saying you do that just making an observation that I notice from some peers of mine. Use the term loosely.
     
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  22. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member+

    Oct 10, 2011
    Arkansas
    I don't know that I've ever been blocked by a school, but if one was that unhappy with me I hope they did. It can't be much fun to go into an environment where the home team is expecting a poor job from you, and every call is "wrong" from the opening whistle. Come to think of it...
     
  23. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    You could ask the assignor?
     
  24. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    I allow teams to block (a small number of) officials, and if they do, I probably wouldn't notice unless I tried to override the block. As @kayakhorn says, no particular point in asking for trouble by having a referee start the game with a presumption that things will go wrong.
     
  25. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I once did a game at a school that is on the geographic edges of the schools our high school association serves. Moist day, two guys go chasing a ball that has gone across the wet track. They get onto the track and their cleats aren't gripping anymore. Visiting team player grabs the home team player to try to keep from falling down. Home team player takes exception to this and takes a swing at the visiting team player. Home team player gets to see the cherry colored plastic. After the game, as the AD is 'escorting' us to our cars, we hear all about how terrible that decision was, etc. Turns out, when I went to file my game report, it was the AD's son.

    The assignor let me know that the AD had asked that I not do games there anymore. Aw, shucks. Out of the way school with a reputation for athletic ineptitude doesn't want me anymore. Boo hoo. That was the year that the school did not win a varsity league contest in any sport! When I told one of my referee colleagues how I had been black listed there, he asked "How do I get on that list?"

    Not surprisingly, the AD is now long gone and, unfortunately, I was back at the school last year, for a playoff game even, and again this year. Still a long drive out there.
     

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