The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Who said anything about 'your' posts? I am addressing the claim that pro/rel is pointless because promoted clubs inevitably go straight back down, a claim that was bandied about quite frequently on here, Leicester were the particular example used at the time and since promotion they have won the league and been to the quarter final if the Champions League! They are also currently the biggest challengers to Liverpool! Relegation certainties Burnley and Wolves have/are also played/playing European football.
     
  2. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    You seriously think that Wolves' only objection for the season is to 'avoid relegation'? You think the Geordies are just happy to be in the Premier League? You don't think that the 40'000 home regulars at Aston Villa don't want to be European Champions once again? Aw c'mon.
     
  3. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I realize you've been absent for a while, but we've actually been over your specific anecdote: Reading is not a minor league team.
     
  4. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thing to keep in mind is that most of the clubs predated the J-League in the form of semi-professional company teams. There was pro/rel before the J-League. In effect, the founding of the J-League was a temporary suspension of pro/rel in order to get the professional game off the ground.

    When MLS was founded, the US did not have many pre-existing clubs with the resources to play in a national league, as the J-League did. (Note that a national league in Japan doesn't require nearly as much travel.)
     
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  5. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But the problem here is that soccer is not historically a major sport. It's likely that no one in the US would ever have built the following to sustain that level, without first creating a league at that level.

    If we're going to talk about the J-League, it was also a case of moving teams up to "an artificial level without having built the following to sustain it" -- hence the need to suspend pro/rel to build that following.

    I would further argue that, once European soccer became widely accessible through satellite TV, it became virtually impossible to build a professional league system organically in any country. From the 1990s onward, building top down has probably been the only viable option for any country that didn't already have an established professional league.
     
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  6. Nope, I'm a fan of soccerplayer Zlatan, but consider him for the rest to be too full of self glorification.The point was an article was quoted in which nobodies from European competitions were asked about the mls quality as a "proof" of it's competiveness/quality compared to the leagues they originated from.
     
  7. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Newcastle and Villa fans will want 40 points this season. Anything more will be a bonus.

    But it's the newer teams that are succeeding. Look at the top of the USL attendance table and they're all expansion teams. Of course the cream have been nabbed by MLS but still.
     
  8. What the closed shop guys fail to understand or better consistantly ignore is that our P/R leagues arenot seperate entities, but in fact one big table of clubs in which there isnot a huge drop in quality compared to the closed shops.
    In fact you might see our tiered leagues as Venn diagramms in which parts of two leagues are in overlapping venn-circles. Closed shops by nature are separate circles as the closed shops create a barrier to grow in quality.
     
  9. So where does the claim from certain posters come from that the mls will be the top league that will dwarf leagues like the Eredivisie on the world stage in prestige to play in, if this is the real situation?
     
  10. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Generally agreed for the most part, but 2010 is WAY too early to claim a robust structure:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSF_Division_2_Professional_League

    Nothing says robust structure like the federation needing to step in and create a D2 league because there was an idealogical split which caused a bunch of teams to have no league which could be sanctioned. It's only in the last few years that you could claim any lower div league was reasonably stable, and that was only USL, NASL was deep in its death throes at that point.

    Now to go back to lurking.
     
  11. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I know a few Villa fans and they want to be back in the Champions League where they feel they belong. Villa fans (like Newcastle fans) believe they are one of the giants of the English game (looking at their history its difficult to argue) If you think they are going to be satisfied with floating around the bottom half of the Premier League you are mistaken.
     
  12. Did that include a fee to be in the J league?
     
  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You did:
    Which is clearly not which point in your post I was responding to.

    So are you going to continue to act like a troll or are you actually going to respond to the point i was making instead of claiming I was making a different point?
     
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  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Out of those 12 teams only one still exists at D2 level and that's in a different league. The 4 most stable teams joined MLS, one is on hiatus from D3, 6 are defunct and the other changed its name and switched leagues.

    What stabilised D2 was the addition of MLS reserve teams. We're now at the stage where USL is saying they don't need them any more. That's a big sign of confidence.
     
  15. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They'll be satisfied this season. Unfortunately for Villa they can't do a Man City or Chelsea because of FFP.
     
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  16. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's trying to make a point against something that wasn't stated ...

    I'm not insinuating anything. I've point blank put what I'm saying into my posts. Their title winning seasons was literally a Cinderella Hollywood script ending. I pointed directly to their finishes the three subsequent seasons (middle of the table). That isn't something I've made up, it's how things have gone for them. I've pointed to the end of the season for several reasons. Bournemouth (another fave of the p/r crowd) has had a few impressive first halves of the season playing very good football. Full season though ... reality set it. We don't know what Leicester's reality is but we do have a 5 season record to go on. Of their 5 seasons which is more likely? Top 3 finish or middle of the pack? Their actual finishes say the latter. Yes, I am paying attention though and if they play the full season at this level then they've changed the narrative. Until they do that though ... (see all the talk about Tottenham 4-5yrs ago).

    If they'd had the same last 4 seasons as LC, yes I would. I'm going by what's happened. Plenty of clubs have great half seasons. I'm not insinuating they won't ... I'm saying that until they do it, they haven't done it. Their EPL record points to them not doing it. So, let's see how it plays out eh?

    Where did I say it didn't? Where did I say I didn't like it? Everything about their win points to just how far fetched it was. That is a fact that perhaps you don't like. Yeah it happened and it was awesome.

    How many times has that happened, exactly? Especially in the modern money era?
    How many times has a team finished top 6 two years into the EPL? Top 4? Qualified for European Play?
    What's the norm for a 2nd year EPL team?

    Well there have been coherent arguments as to why ... you may not agree with them though.
    Everton got left behind by the money train. They're run well enough to produce players but they have to sell on in order to continue to generate revenues due to their outdated and hapless in this day and age stadium (in regards to giving them ammunition to challenge for titles). They can land that 2nd tier star (by EPL standards) which puts them above most clubs but they can't hang on to anyone truly transcendent and they aren't big enough to land anyone like that either. Everton is the result of the money at the top end creating a ceiling and pro/rel at the bottom end churning over clubs keeping them floating comfortably above danger.

    .... what? Oh, you're trying that M thing and twisting words or purposefully making something out to be something you know it isn't.
    Arsenal hasn't finished out of the top 6 in 24yrs. ManU have finished outside the top 6 once in the last 29yrs. Currently Arsenal is 6th and ManU is in 7th, one point out of the top 6. Sheffield United is in 5th on GD over Arsenal. I know where I'd place bets on the order of finish for those 3 based on history. Not sure how you're drawing your conclusion other than being this way on purpose.

    If any of that is what had actually been said you'd have a point. At least for what I've stated, I know that's not the argument that was made.

    What happened to QPR and Burnley, the two clubs promoted with LC? Oh, they were relegated, that's right. Yeah Burnley has made it back again but still.

    As opposed to the instability caused by ever shifting goalposts, artificial arms races, ever changing revenue streams, and having to potentially invest above your means just to "survive" ?

    Were that the claim that was made .... but it wasn't, and hasn't been.

    Since you so vehemently feel that this was the claim, perhaps you could provide some evidence of it?

    Yeah, I'm sure they would LIKE all of that stuff, sure. At the start of THIS season though there's a handful of clubs with TRUE AND ACTUAL goals beyond "securing the magic 40pts."

    The Premier League is its own entity, full stop. The Football League is a separate entity from the EPL and the Leagues below it, full stop.

    The US and England are not the only countries with different entities at different levels of the "pyramid"

    There are HUGE drops in quality IN THE SAME DIVISION in pro/rel set ups, let alone up or down a division.

    The USL has every ability and potential to grow as big or bigger than the MLS (and the teams with it) ... the same cannot be said for a non top division league anywhere in the world in regards to the to division in their country.

    What the fans want and what an actual goal of the club for a season is, are not the same thing ... much like what you SAY has been stated in this thread and what actually has been.
     
  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Manchester United play in Stretford not Salford.
     
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  18. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    The World Series was barely a two-day national story. Any leftover attention has been because of the Astros cheating scandal and not because the Nationals actually won. The Stanley Cup isn't a national story in the US normally and the NHL is the fourth-biggest league in the US. Unlike Europe, we have a very saturated sports market that has a lot of competition for attention.

    The NFL will attract the most attention for a while and college football will attract the second most because those sports are heading into the playoffs. In March, college basketball gets all the attention from the entire country. Then the NBA playoffs take over the sports media and fans' attention. You don't have that in Europe.

    That being said, if MLS was paying NBA/NHL wages, it would be one of the highest-paying leagues in the world and wouldn't have trouble attracting top stars from all over the globe.
     
  19. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Expansion teams are spread pretty much evenly through the attendance tables of both the Championship and L1: yes, New Mexico drew extremely well, no Austin did not. Madison, yes. Chattanooga, no.
    The "second place" expansion team in the Championship, attendance-wise, came in 9th, so no, the top of the table is not all expansion teams.
     
  20. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Any of these are inherently in a different league, since that league was only intended to be a stopgap by the federation until NASL and/or USLPro got their acts together.

    But it's actually 2 that still exist at the D2 level (although both have had a name change): North Carolina and Tampa Bay.
     
  21. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    So 30 metro areas have a team to support and the rest of the country can go pound sand, I guess.
     
  22. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except that's not the case ... Just because you don't have an NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, or MLS team doesn't mean necessarily mean you don't have a team and certainly doesn't mean you can't.
     
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  23. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I'll be sure to let the residents of St. Louis, San Diego, and Oakland know this. I'm sure it will be well received.
     
  24. Doogh

    Doogh Member+

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Currently have 77+ professional teams, the first ten metro areas have a professional soccer team in some capacity, even multiple teams in one city area. With a lot more teams filling the rest of the metro areas.

    Negativity isn't a good look for you.
     
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  25. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Know what? Those cities are well versed in getting multiple professional clubs as well as getting multiple chances at a single pro league.

    All three also have or will have a NON "top tier" professional sport club.

    San Antonio doesn't have an MLS team ... but we've sure as shit got a team (on our second one in this modern era in fact, and we've got a pro league trophies to boot).
     

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