The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. That's something I was told in other US forums that I am puzzled by, that people play soccer organised around their age group. So pay to play clubs for youth and seperate from them grown ups playing together. Clubs organised like in the Netherlands as all age clubs, seem to be a rarity.
    But is that exclusively an attribute of soccer in the USA or are all amateur sports segregated in those age groups?
     
  2. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    What do you mean, "I suggest"? That's literally what happened.
     
  3. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I don't, but they are corporations and those that run them have agency and make organizational decisions.
     
  4. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    It's not the only possible model to sustainability, though. Yes, if you plop a brand new franchise, with no history in a city, you need some external capital to keep it afloat.
    However, we're now starting to hit the point of maturity in interest in soccer as a viable business that we're seeing the potential for community based clubs to possibly grow into that space.
    Right now, the bottom of the pyramid looks like the province of real estate developers and minor league baseball team owners looking for ways to add new revenue. I'm not sure why providing a path for existing clubs that can show healthy financial foundation is somehow less desirable than that.
     
  5. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Really!! So we seem to finally agree that it's bollox then!?
     
  6. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    There aren't many "athletic club" in the states where you pay a fee and the family can partake in any number of sports. Most "soccer club" are youth only charitable organizations - sometimes their coaches might play under the logo of the club in "old man soccer" O-30/O-40 leagues but the examples I've seen they do not share incorporation/budgets etc.

    One local youth team recently made the jump by starting an NWSL team (amateur, 5th division if you consider USL-2 4th division). They recently purchased a ground with 1500 seats, locker rooms etc that for the longest time was known as the home for local amateur rugby team. Sadly it's a mile from a fracking pad, so, maybe not a good long term home, although "can you do it while inhaling a mix of carcinogens in indiana township" might someday replace the "cold wet wednesday in stoke" as the yardstick for player ability among enlightened english speaking coaches :)

    There are more amateur teams starting to do youth teams from what I can tell on twitter, it doesn't seem like they're using the youth to prop up the senior side - time will tell.
     
  7. From a financial pov it's a no brainer as you can cut certain overhead costs you had to pay as individual clubs/teams. Even more interesting if one would combine multiple sports in one club like the Dutch club Kampong does (with over 6000 members the biggest amateur multi sport club in the Netherlands).
     
  8. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    NOt here. Many youth soccer clubs, by virtue of being setup as charitable organizations get benefits for field permits and gym space, where an adult team has to pay. LIkewise sales tax exemptions for other purchases.

    It really won't make sense until training & solidarity is enforced at all levels, and ideally, within the country as well - USL C signs a kid to their first pro contract, their youth clubs gets a little something to help them produce the next kid....

    I think that step will be bigger than pro/rel alone, but we'll see.....
     
  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm talking about the 9,000 affiliated clubs.
     
  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    USL C teams are signing 14 year-olds who want to avoid MLS academies and college soccer and move to Europe at the earliest opportunity.
     
  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We're talking about Dorking FC, not Real Madrid.

    I don't know what exactly happened but the people in charge of the club upon its demise had nothing to do with the people who were in charge when the stadium was condemned.

    But somehow you suggest "the club" deserved to fail.
     
  12. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I'm not implying it is, but businesses aren't passive implements, like a hammer, they're active actors in their own agency, albeit via their board.
    I don't know exactly what happened, either, because the total knowledge I had of "Dorking" was the same reaction that Beavis and Butthead would have had.

    But getting condemned by health and safety seems pretty indicative of their financial situation.
    I absolutely am not saying that they "deserved" to fail, I am saying that they were already failing.
     
    kinznk repped this.
  13. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    But you were responding to this:

    This ignores the fact that the history of pro soccer clubs in the U.S. is full of people buying franchise rights to their city and having a limited runway, not building up gradually over 15 years.

    ------

    So the history of pro clubs is that they tend to spring up when someone buys franchise rights either from USL or MLS and drop a team in. Those 9000 affiliated community based clubs have no path to USL or MLS. Hence the reason for this thread :)
     
    M and Expansion Franchise repped this.
  14. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    You know their stadium only seats 250-300, the rest of that 3000 capacity is standing area, possibly covered - the google results are not entirely clear....

    This guy would be perfectly fine as a NPSL/UPSL/Doo-dah, doo-dah owner, which is about the 6th tier here, right?
     
  15. miladmaz12

    miladmaz12 Member

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #23990 miladmaz12, Oct 13, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
    Do you have any evidence that the majority of youth clubs want to take a path to USL or MLS? How can you tell that? Do you have any data to back up your claims?

    The current immature American soccer system does not accommodate youth clubs "choosing" to take a path to USL or MLS. There's no support or resources available to achieve that, unless if you'd like to see a youth club fold then be my guest.
     
    USRufnex repped this.
  16. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    The pertinent evidence/data was that the 9000 affiliated clubs that are based in their community have no bearing when referring to

    "the history of pro soccer clubs in the U.S. is full of people buying franchise rights to their city and having a limited runway, not building up gradually over 15 years."

    A 100+ year old system isn't really immature. Stunted, perhaps....
     
  17. miladmaz12

    miladmaz12 Member

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do the majority of 9,000+ soccer clubs in America want a theoretical path to USL or MLS in the current system we have today? That's all I'm asking. They obviously don't have the money or support to make the jump.

    We don't have a 100+ year old system. Multiple Division 1/First tier pro soccer leagues here folded before MLS. But there wasn't a system of leagues back then pre-1994. Hence the premature/immature soccer system that just became more fleshed out today.
     
    USRufnex repped this.
  18. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Yeah, the seating is vague, which is fine. It non-league.

    The thing is that they are able to go from a literal field to a possibly fully pro league. Without a ten millionaire!
     
    USRufnex repped this.
  19. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    I would say no, the majority of the existing youth clubs don't want a theoretical path to USL or MLS. I'd speculate the majority really don't know how soccer works in the rest of the world based on my experience talking with other coaches/club admins/state admins over the past 4 years.

    Any that do are hindered by the current system. I think they could get to the equivalent level in our system as the Dorking Wanderers did in theirs - successful enough to be at the level right below professional - NPSL/UPSL/NISA? Here that means you have to watch out that one of the anointed leagues doesn't sell franchise rights to some willing millionaire and undermine what you've worked for, in the misguided belief that "markets" are more important than "clubs".
     
    USRufnex repped this.
  20. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #23995 USRufnex, Oct 13, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
    Are you kidding me?

    I stopped posting regularly on BS months ago after it became apparent there will be no new moderators or even a decent rotation of current moderators to switch it up a bit and keep this forum from becoming stale...

    I left BS to observe and communicate more often with more of my fellow soccer fans who aren't part of BigSoccer's self righteous and frightfully condescending little clique of domestic anti-Pro/Rel clowns and their MLS apologist enablers.


    I left so I wouldn't be tempted to read Kenn treating people he disagrees with like they're from another planet while simultaneously trying to use "ABC After School Special" as a metaphor when that reference went out of style sometime in the decade of the 2000's, if not earlier.

    I left so I wouldn't be tempted to engage in worthless rabbit hole arguments with people who clearly don't give a sh!t about the subject of Promotion/Relegation, referring to it as some arbitrary way to organize leagues (hint: Free Enterprise isn't an arbitrary way to organize an economy, either).

    I left in order to lower my blood pressure, which rises every time I see BS double standards, which would be pretty much every freaking day i've logged into BigSoccer over the past decade...

    I left because there isn't a subforum where Pro/Rel is treated as the shared interest it is, rather than the subject of mutual disdain the usual suspects on this thread consistently try to turn it into...

    I left for a long enough time to occasionally peak in to observe who' the next poster(s) ganged up on by the usual suspects would be... (like clockwork LOL)

    I left to take a step back to admire (from a suitable distance) the anti-Pro/Rel zealots and their MLS apologist reppers' collective intellectual superiority complex. Very impressive, I must say.

    I left to allow more time for me to engage in person with hard working soccer people like one of the A's coaches and this other guy a little older than myself who used to work for RBNY over a few beers at Arnie's Bar downtown (hint: both think MLS is totally full of it these days)

    I left so I'd have more time to spend suggesting wholesale changes for the newest version of the coverband Tulsa Roughnecks, whose new owners are trying to right 4 1/2 years of wrongs and who's match last night had less in attendance than any of the matches i've ever road tripped to watch my NPSL club play over at FC Wichita.

    And last, but not least, I left so I wouldn't have to deal with arrogant jackasses like YOU.

    2015: The first USRufnex Anti-Pro/Rel GOLDEN JACKASS AWARD!
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-case-for-pro-rel.2009269/page-161#post-31985504
     
  21. miladmaz12

    miladmaz12 Member

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #23996 miladmaz12, Oct 13, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
    The "rest of the world", in this case, since you are mentioning England's soccer pyramid system has a 100+ year system already established and thought out. It wasn't until the late 1980s when The Football League decided to do open pro/rel with the National League.

    To accommodate 9,000+ clubs in America (again, all imagination, no evidence if they're interested) you need much, much more leagues, a complete system of interconnected leagues, support, sustainability and money.

    America doesn't have that right now. Its at the earliest of steps to a full fledged pyramid. It doesn't have 11 tiered levels, only 3 (with D1, D2, D3 recognized by USSF only) Division 4, 5, 6 are considered in name only to be NPSL/UPSL/USL2 in a different but USSF-affiliated association called USASA.

    Did you just found out that there's money in soccer? I don't think any youth club had aspirations to make it to MLS or USL, even most youth clubs were founded before MLS existed.
     
  22. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And when you left, you seemed happier, and we were definitely happier.

    So, again... no one's forcing you to stay.
     
    HailtotheKing repped this.
  23. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #23998 USRufnex, Oct 13, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2019
    What scares me these days is hearing that at least a few USL franchises are trying to extract money from local pay-to-play youth clubs of their choosing, exploring the potential of a new revenue stream, I guess...
     
  24. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    You might try to persuade me why I (and many others who no longer post here) should stay and comment on the many topics in many other threads that I (and many others who no longer post here) have a plethora of information about... but no, you really can't do that, now can you?

    And so this thread goes off its rails on a very regular basis because anti-Pro/Rel trolls like Crazy and HTTK are allowed to infest it.

    BTW, I'll check in whenever I feel like it, but thank you for your concern about my happiness.
     
  25. miladmaz12

    miladmaz12 Member

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #24000 miladmaz12, Oct 13, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2019
    Partnerships happen all the time in youth soccer. Nothing scary or illegal if done right within the agreement from the youth club and the professional club at hand.


    Third, do you think the closed pyramid we've had in place over the past 25 to 30 years has become more connected or more stratefied?
    If it's the latter, why is that the case?[/QUOTE]



    The current American soccer system is more stratified than connected, by the design of course. Like what I told the other user in this thread, we are at the beginning stages of a fleshed out American soccer system with D1-D3 considered professional level and "open division" (D4, D5 and beyond) considered amateur or semi-pro level by USASA.

    I could tell that you are a soccer fan for many years. I think you can remember what the system was like let's say - in 2004 or 2008 where you have multiple clubs folding in USL lower leagues and a time where there were like 10-12 clubs in Division 2 and 3 respectively. Lower league soccer was a lot unstable back then no?
     

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