The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Are you stating that these clubs made/make their money despite P/R?
     
  2. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've mentioned this before, but the adult amateur leagues in Virginia have pro/rel as well. The Central Virginia Soccer Association has 8 divisions with almost 75 teams!

    Even the Adult rec league I used to play in had pro/rel.
     
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  3. Where would they be without him:
    Didi Gregorius, New York Yankees. Netherlands.
    Gregorius is the regular shortstop for the playoff-bound New York Yankees. He missed the first two months of the season while recovering from offseason elbow surgery, and he’s hit .257 with 13 home runs in 249 at bats. Born in Amsterdam and spending time as a youth player in both the Caribbean and the Netherlands, the 29 year old is scheduled to become a free agent this offseason
    .
    In New York, if we were still in control, it would be. Because it would be among the best in the world.
     
  4. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm saying they made it independent of the existence of P/R. Arsenal has never been relegated (and thus, has never been in a promotion fight) and hasn't been in a real relegation fight since the year I was born 44 years ago, before "big" money was in the game. That same year was the last time Man U was in a P/R fight of any type. Liverpool's last experience was in '54-'55. Bayern & Ajax were both in '64-'65. Feyenoord '57-'58. Wikipedia doesn't have a convenient list of PSV seasons but I'm going to guess they're similar given how long its been since they were relegated.

    Not a single one of these teams have been in a promotion or relegation battle in over 40 years. So they made their money independent of the pressures of P/R.
     
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  5. DanGerman

    DanGerman Member+

    Aug 28, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just so you know as a Yankee fan that absolutely loves Didi, they'd be in the exact same place they are now. Didi's been hurt too much this season to have much of an impact his injury opened the door for Gleyber Torres who has been scalding hot this season. But the question I have is why is Baseball not more popular in Netherlands?
     
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  6. Probably because the only ones that are good enough to worry us are the Italians. If it were the Germans the rivalry would cranck up considerably following of it. We love to beat up the Germans.
     
  7. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is zero evidence that this would be the case. Also, as is the case with Los Angelos and Miami, the citizens of New York City have infinite entertainment and sporting options. In these cities, if the team isn't winning and to a large degree doesn't have recognizable super stars, nobody really cares.
    I said BASKETBALL players. I did not mention baseball players. A large number of the best baseball players have been coming out of Latin, Central, and South America (primarily Venezuela) for the past 20+ years.

    As for player development, by and large professional teams in the US have not traditionally been in the talent development business. The NFL relies almost solely on the NCAA system for its players. Once players sign with an NFL team, it's largely up to them how well they progress individually.

    Same can be said of the NBA historically. Though that pendulum is slowly swinging towards teams developing their own players. NBA commissioner Adam Silver has been quite outspoken in his vision for NBA teams to move towards the European Soccer model of academies, and using G-League teams to help develop professional players.

    MLB has historically had their farm systems consisting of teams at various levels in the minor leagues. Baseball lends itself to individuals who are highly self motivated, and go lout and work on their craft. Not sure how much development is done by teams, as teams at all levels play a game almost everyday in the Spring and summer. It's more of a collection of 300+ players with the hopes that 1-3 of which will eventually trickle upwards to the big league team.

    Hockey is slightly different. There are "Junior Leagues" in the US and Canada that are for elite teenage players who show professional potential. In essence the players are trained and treated as professionals, but are not paid. This allows those players who age out to keep their university eligibility in tact so that they can parlay their talents into a college education, should they not make it to the pro ranks.

    MLS is really the first professional league in the US to have a player development path. The investment in player development varies by team though. The league does mandate that every team spends on player development and must have at least an affiliation/partnership with a team in USL for fund and operate their own team in USL for players to have opportunities to get game experience. Now are their teams that have chosen to do the absolute bare minimum? Yes, and that is also true of clubs all over the world. I doubt that every club in the Netherlands spends as much time, energy and money on their youth setup as Ajax does.

    MLS academies are still in a nascent state as well. Most MLS academies are less than 10 years into to the endeavor. Ajax's youth conveyor belt wasn't built overnight. Red Bull New York and FC Dallas have had over a 10 year head start on the rest of the teams in the league in terms of their Academy setups. hence why they produce the most professional and youth national team level talent currently in the USA.

    There are also cultural barriers in the USA that work against pro player development academies. In the USA nearly all families highly value college educations. It's part of the American Dream, and has been for more than a Century. Families want their children to grow up and go to college so that they can get a better job than they have. For most parents the thought of their child putting all of their eggs into being a professional athlete, is not realistic. There are parents that will opt for their son or daughter to take a college scholarship over a professional contract. That's something that is Unique to the USA. It's still a very difficult sell for MLS teams to sign teenagers to professional contracts. Parents will not risk their child's college playing eligibility (read, college athletic scholarship money) for a pro contract.
     
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  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't understand your point. MLS and partner organizations are spending $100 millions on youth development.









    https://www.redbullsacademy.com/training/about-our-program/
     
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  9. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well ... I mean this IS the pro/rel in the USA forum
     
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  10. Ouch, my myopia kicked in:(
    Money spent doesnot equate to quality delivered. AZ Alkmaar (former club managed by Earny Stewart and now run by baseball legend Eenhoorn) is in my eyes at the moment the best academy of the Netherlands. The quality in players development however doesnot vary very much in the Netherlands. The delivery of top talents rests more on scouting them in the first place. Contrary to popular believe you cannot develop a star in the sense that you take a bunch of kids and give them the best soccer education. It's okay for producing good players, but not stars. Those kids bring that extra themselves.
    Money spent by clubs like Feyenoord, Ajax and PSV is more geared towards being attractive for top talents. That's why former superstars coach in the youth academies. It's a double edged sword. The stars learn the ropes of coaching and the kids get from the best of the trade the training to excel in certain positions. A kid that's a highly talented striker and has the choice to be coached at it by van Nistelrooij, Kuyt, van Persie or Makaay or at another club by lesser former stars probably choose to learn it from those who were best in that field.
     
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  11. Over here it's a "and ..and" situation. We have at the pro clubs a cooperation between clubs and colleges, so kids can do and a "normal" education and the sports development track.
    Education isnot expensive over here, so there's no incentive for something like scholarships that exist in the States. Clubs actually promote talents to go to higher education as it stimulates their behaviour in a good direction.
     
  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS clubs have built public schools at their academies for the same reason.
     
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  13. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The athletics/scholastic route will see some dramatic change during the second half of my life IMO. The very top end may well stay the course but I see some pretty significant changes coming that will at least be implemented/starting to transition before I leave this big blue ball.

    The NCAA has had the curtain pulled back and exposed more so in the last decade than in the first 100yrs of its existence combined. If they're to survive (and college athletics as we know it) then they HAVE to evolve.

    Somewhat ironically I feel that soccer is the perfect vehicle to help usher in the changes.
     
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  14. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That, combined with what we now know about football and CTE means the college sports landscape is going to look very different in 20-30 years than it does now.
     
  15. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I doubt that the CTE stuff will have that big of an impact, at least not to the degree that the doom sayers are stating. American Football will continue to evolve. Just look at the TV numbers from this past weekend.

    The FBI investigation into NCAA Basketball should usher in changes. Then again North Carolina got off punishment free for institution wide academic fraud. The NCAA protected its Blue Blood member there.

    College Football has been, and continues to move into a realm that will eventually fully operate outside of the NCAA's oversight.

    To bring this back full circle. FIFA, UEFA, the USSF, The English FA, etc., have a difficult enough time keeping tabs on everything going on in the world of Football (corruption, development of the game in emerging countries, development of the Women's game, etc). The NCAA has a difficult task of keeping tabs on college athletics in the USA.

    To put it another way: if you aren't part of, or at least in good standing with the cartel, you're in their cross hairs. FIFA and the Qatar & Russia World Cups (man who hasn't England and the US pissed off?). The NCAA and the North Carolina Academic Scandal.
     
  16. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I posted a chart in another thread showing high school participation in team sports, adjusted for student population, since 1990.

    Football -21.1%
    Basketball -22.1%
    Baseball -14.4%
    Soccer +49.4%
     
  17. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have my doubts. We're now seeing players retire at the height of their careers over CTE concerns. I saw some people, half-joking, suggest that Antonio Brown might be suffering from CTE and that's what's driving his behavior. I doubt it, but that thought is in people's mind.

    I don't think the NFL or college football is going away, but I don't think its going to be the same game, or as popular, in 20-30 years as it is now.
     
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  18. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh certainly ... the "curtain pulled back" was all encompassing. The literal business of universities, "amateur" athletics, the money made (and NOT), kids DYING at practice etc etc etc ...

    No, not in vein of what the doomsdayers are saying but it already is having an impact. Equipment and rule changes abound. The league itself hasn't even truly begun to deal with the long term (and forever from this point forward) health issues of players after their NFL careers. This is why I stated "during the second half of my life" ... it'll take time, but it'll change/evolve or suffer for it.

    I remember a time when Baseball was KING. Basketball hadn't exploded yet, and hockey was much more a national eyepiece than today. I'm only 40.

    For over a decade they didn't even crown their top division football champion each season. They don't even have full purview of college athletics (hello NAIA). There are already schools that, with how things are structured, are already dropping sports/contemplating dropping all athletics.

    It is an antiquated organization with arcane ruling mechanisms. It far outlasted its intended (and needed) purpose.

    The game I watch with my sons is NOT the game I grew up watching and played. The game he sits down to watch with me as an old man will NOT be the game he grew up watching. The game he watches with his kid will NOT be the game he watched/played (if he does).
     
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  19. Is rugby having the same health issues?
     
  20. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From what I have read, Rugby has issues with concussions. Rugby has also been on the forefront of dealing with head injuries. There is an extensive head injury test and protocol that is followed.

    Rugby is a very physical sport. In some respects it's less physical than American Football in the fact that if you don't have the ball, you can't be hit. It's also much less of a collision sport than American Football is. In American Football players get a running start and throw themselves into tackles and hits. Nearly every play every player on the field is engaging in physical contact. Even with all of the pads, that takes it toll. Players have said it is like getting into a car accident on every play.

    Rigby players are also taught how to tackle properly, so as to not expose their heads to injury. American Football players are taught how to tackle, and also taught how to hit, and with the addition of pads and helmets players often have a false sense of security, which leads to more injuries.

    I'm actually surprised that Hockey players don't suffer more concussions. With addition of skates many players can be moving at speeds in excess of 25MPH at times. Add in the boards......
     
  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll point out the obvious fact that most rugby players are on the pitch for 80 minutes.

    Danny Houghton of Hull FC has made 1,246 tackles in his first 28 games this season, or one tackle every two minutes. Darius Leonard was the top tackler in NFL last season with 163 tackles.
     
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  22. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    @feyenoordsoccerfan Transfer fees are pretty foreign to most US sports fans. Charles O. Finley, owner of baseball's Oakland A's sold several players in the 1970s. The sales were ruled not in the best interests of baseball by the league and did not go through.
     
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  23. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And I'll point out that NFL players, in particular Running Backs, and Defensive and Offensive Lineman get hit on every play.

    Not arguing wether Rugby Union and Rugby League are physical, just that if you don't have the ball in your hands you can't legally be hit. In American Football, blocking players without the ball is essential. The fact they all wear pads and getting a running head start leads to more collisions for nearly all players on every play.

    I would argue that Rugby League is the more physical of the two codes though.
     
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  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Leading college and pro teams (I know specifically the Seattle Seahawks and University of Washington Huskies have both been called out for doing it for years) have been pushing their players towards a rugby tackling style to help protect them.
     
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