The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Scores, schedules, standings, highlights.
     
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  2. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #22802 USRufnex, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    Crap? Are you sure about that?
    Lesser number from the anti-P/R camp? Really?

    My friend lives in Berlin and he thought it was funny how anyone who claims to be a fan of 1. Union Berlin would be diametrically opposed to Pro/Rel. My old colleague is not a Pro/Rel zealot... sorry, but he's not. He's a fan of the club and explained to me in full detail around 2014 why he'd rather be a fan of 1. Union Berlin than be a fan of Herta.

    Nobody disputes that.
    But fans of all sports regularly debate over who has "the best fans."

    It was just ironic that this kind of club, if it existed in the USA and wanted to be part of MLS, would be forced to find a billionaire owner sugar daddy to pay $200 mil to get in and would completely lose the heart and soul they accomplished in Germany's open system which they managed to scale from the lowest of lows to the Bund... from wiki...

    "The club slipped to the Regionalliga Nord (III) in 2004–05 and then to the NOFV-Oberliga Nord (IV) in 2005–06, but has returned to third division play after capturing the Oberliga title. In 2008–09, Union became one of the founding clubs of the new 3. Liga, and its inaugural champion, securing first place and promotion to the 2. Bundesliga on 10 May. They remained in the 2nd-tier until the 2018–19 season, when they secured their first ever promotion into the Bundesliga after defeating VfB Stuttgart in the play-offs. The fans invaded the pitch, but no one was harmed.[7]"

    You and the rest of the BigSoccer forum clique with your intellectual superiority complex regularly on full display have never had a problem doing this to me or any number of others who share many of my perspectives.

    Maybe instead of getting your panties in a wad, you should ask me to clarify.
    The online LOL I got from him was over the fact that 1. Union Berlin had only a few years prior been promoted. It was ironic.

    LOL, of course you do...
    You don't see the hypocrisy of that statement?

    You have no problems with Kenn pulling derogatory terms like "prole" and "prawn" out of his ass and hurling Eurosnob/Ameritrash vitriolic insults as a broad brushed stereotype of literally hundreds of American fans I've talked to over the past ten or so years in particular... but you're somehow up in arms over an old colleague of mine in Berlin laughing at how rare it would be to find a fan of his club diametrically opposed to the concept of Promotion/Relegation?

    BigSoccer forum anti-Pro/Rel, MLS apologist hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me.
     
  3. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    #22803 USRufnex, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    Looking at the last few years of USL D2 standings, I believe I understand the huge risks of giving a D3 USL Pro team a free pass into USL Championship with no regard to sporting merit.

    Yawn, my ass.
     
  4. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Definitely. I would go to it for those reasons and, like I said, soccer wonks will. I just don't think normal people look for D3 highlights for teams they have no connection to. Regarding scores and standings, the first game is still over a week away.

    This isn't excusing NISA's web presence, it's garbage, but I don't have much of an issue if they just expect the teams themselves to market themselves.
     
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  5. As much as the "soccer isnot popular in the USA" constant popping up does.
     
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  6. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a fair point, but the average fan is going to already the name of their local NFL or Premier League team. I still think that for the curious soccer fan, the league site would be a starting point if only because it would show up near the top of a Google search.

    And I'm just saying--this is really basic stuff. It's not that hard to make sure you have hyperlinks up and running on your site at the beginning of the season. Either maintain the site or take it down.

    But that's just an observation--I wish them success.
     
  7. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I had tried that but it doesn't take you any "deeper."
     
  8. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If we’re talking about people willing to pay money for tickets and merchandise, and spend time watching games on TV, soccer is still a second-tier sport in the US.
     
  9. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly. It's WAY more popular than it was when I became a fan 21 years ago, but it's still pretty niche in some important ways.
     
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  10. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Not sure what your point is here?
     
  11. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Yeh, that claim made me lol.
     
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  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First of all, he never talks about the downside of relegation, and explain how he would sell it to MLS and USL owners.

    Secondly, Americans do not wear Arsenal and Liverpool and Chelsea and Barcelona and Real Madrid and Juventus and Dortmund shirts because of pro/rel.

    (And in the 5 years I've been watching, MLS has gone from a lower Championship level to the stage where a few clubs could survive in the Prem imho).
     
  13. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  14. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Teams ceasing to exist is the essence of the sport!
     
  15. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    On the list of dumb arguments you've made, this is up there. You come on here and say "I like pro/rel" that's fine. Lot's of people like pro/rel, including people you label as "anti". But when you say things like "MLS is too big" or I saw kids in Messi shirts so obviously they care about pro/rel then prepare to have your reasoning questioned. If you're saying "MLS is too big" prepare to have someone point out that that might not be the case. If you say "we need pro/rel" be prepared to back that up with facts. This isn't a circle jerk, it's an open forum. You never could deal with that.

    Over the years you have threatened people with violence and used a racial slur. That doesn't give me a good reason to think that you're anything but a bitter old man who flies off the handle in an unhealthy way at anyone who disagrees with you. Unless this is just long con in which case, I applaud your effort to sticking to your character. I've never done those things, HTTK, KCbus, or anyone else that you deem as bad people have never done that.

    Much like a young earth creationist, you ignore the mountain of evidence that doesn't back up your claim while holding on to tiny little bits of evidence as if they prove your point. I'm not obsessed against pro/rel, but I can point to facts as to why it's unlikely to happen and why it's probably a bad idea if you want soccer clubs to survive long term. You literally make shit up or you hold on to things like Silva's TV rights PR stunt. You try to latch all kinds of other issues on to p/r like the women's soccer pay issue when neither are related. It's like young earth creationsists trying to claim violence is directly tied to believing in evolution while ignoring that we actually live at the least violent time in human history.

    I'm old so my opinion is more valid than yours! That's not a good argument. Spend 10 years working in sports, working on TV contract negotiations, building marketing plans for sports teams, have legit discussions with sports media and broadcast executives and get back to me.

    Oh I'm sorry Don didn't call you up before they decided to expand. Oh the horror that a bunch of investors decided to grow the game at the top level and didn't take the time to build a D2. How inconsiderate of them! How terrible that soon we'll have top-level soccer in our most populated areas and that a good portion of the country will be within easy reach of a top-level soccer league that draws better than most leagues around the world. Yeah, I'd latch on to a league organizational gimmick too if that happened to me.

    You're actively rooting against the success of American soccer because it doesn't employ your preferred league organizational gimmick. Why do you hate American soccer? 1.2 million tuned in to watch ATL and Club America in a meaningless friendly the other night too. Do you have a point? This weekend 100,000 people or more will go to watch MLS matches live and 10s of thousands more will go watch USL. No one in those crowds are turning away because their team can't get proed or relled.

    It's not up to MLS or USSF to do that. Leagues should have the freedom to operate how they see fit. That has proven to work in the US and Canada for a hundred years. There aren't too many teams yet either and we probably won't hit that point until there are 60 top-flight capable teams. Which, BTW, we probably won't hit. Sorry if no one wants to invest enough to put a MLS team in Boise. No one wants to invest enough to put anything above minor-league hockey there either.

    Yes, a youth soccer coach in West Virginia really knows the best way to run sports businesses. And he sure had challenged the status quo, that's why we've seen unprecedented growth in closed leagues.

    Then there's the issue of the #ProRel4USA people harboring lots of toxic misogynists but I'm sure you don't see any of that.

    Shun anyone who doesn't believe in what we believe in. Only talk amongst ourselves about our creed and core beliefs. Anyone who isn't 100% with us is against us. Nope not cult-like at all.

    Besides being cult-like, it's also not a good way to foster discussion because all you people want is a circle-jerk.

    I can't speak for Dan but I can say 100% that 1. I never to my knowledge initiated any conversations with you on Twitter and 2. I've only called you by your first name because you posted that online. My first name is Jason so there you go.

    I'll ignore your childish editing of my post but let me address this. Major League Soccer...let's see...two 45 minute halves...can't pick up the ball with your hands...goals....soccer fields....yep it's soccer. It's not your preferred league and that's fine but it's the most successful league we've ever had. You have options. Good for you.

    No one is claiming it is. I've even laid out ways USL could do pro/rel. You're mad that no one is doing soccer the way you want it done. I'm sorry but the world doesn't work that way. I really liked Batman v Superman, I thought it was a refreshing take on the genre in contrast to Marvel films. Most fans didn't like it and Warner Bros is heading in a different direction. That makes me sad a little but I'm not going to go troll fans of MCU films or make a claim that Justice League was superior to Avengers without having some points to back it up. (I wouldn't make that argument since Justice League sucked #ReleaseTheSnyderCut). You and your buddies can gripe about this on Twitter all you want but the fact is that you're not getting your way. You can either relax and enjoy local soccer or ignore local soccer. In the end, it won't matter.

    See you go and make comments like this and if someone comes in and says "How do you get ESPN or Fox to sign off on $100 million TV deals if you're relegating markets?" You fly off the handle and accuse people of market snobbery or any number of things. That's a legit question. That's a question the #ProRel4USA crowd doesn't take the time to answer. That and a hundred others.

    And don't bother answering because you've shown yourself incapable of being a mature adult when it comes to the subject of a particular league organizational gimmick.

    MLS is going to be in the 30 biggest cities in the country soon. I'm sure some dude in Oklahoma buying a Barca jersey instead of a FC Dallas one is really going to prove some sort of point. BTW again, the most popular league in the US basically doesn't have pro/rel either. But at the end of the day, no one is claiming MLS is the best or the top league in the US or the world. It might never reach that level due to many factors, but most of us are okay with that and most of us are happy that American soccer is thriving like never before and we don't get upset about the lack of a standings gimmick.

    Do what you want. And yes, relax it is just soccer. You don't play at a competitive level, you're not investing in a team, you're not doing the legwork to sell season tickets or to get broadcast deals, you're not trying to figure out a travel budget, you're not paying rent on a stadium, you're not doing anything other than going to amateur games and yelling about how much you like a standings gimmick online.
     
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  16. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the level of play in many matches indeed puts the best MLS sides at the lower-end of the Prem in terms of quality, but I still don't think MLS sides have the depth to really grind out a full season in England. Although the lack of travel would mitigate that problem quite a bit.
     
  17. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know what, you're right. My statement wasn't a fair reflection of the discussion. I still think it comes more from the pro than the anti side but yes, that is trashing another poster for what they're a fan of. And it should stop.

    I've been here 20 years, I'm guessing a search of my past history would yield a couple uses of 'Eurosnob' in that time, but in general I try not to ridicule people for what they're a fan of, only for what facts they choose to ignore or what they make no attempt to understand.
     
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  18. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #22818 bigredfutbol, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    Presenting this anecdote without any claims that it proves anything. Just an observation:

    My son ALMOST got signed by a second division team outside the US a couple weeks ago. He was with four other players (three other Americans and an Argentine) on a two-week trial/training visit. He made a good impression, and one of the Asst. Coaches offered him a contract. They even drove him to the capital city to visit the US embassy to get the paperwork for his work visa moving.

    Then the next day, the club revoked the offer. They're dead last in their division and already getting worried about relegation, so they maxed out their foreign player allotment on three of the other players who were all defenders (and older). My son, a younger attacking player, was a luxury they can't afford right now.

    Not saying a closed-league team would have made a different choice ("Defense Wins Championships" and so forth), but it was clear that the need to pull themselves off the bottom of the table was a factor. Others have made the argument that relegation battles are likely to discourage clubs from developing younger players, and to a small degree that's exactly what happened to my kid (who's fine, he's mentally pretty strong and is already looking ahead).
     
  19. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    #22819 M, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    Only the first part of which is even mildly relevant to posting a League Two table. I will also point out that no Football League team has disappeared in the last quarter of a century. So if Bury do go - which is looking increasingly likely - it will hardly be a "trend". And, as you are aware, Bury's situation is largely related to its bizarre management, not pro/rel. But you know that.
     
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  20. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    What's the rate of Football League clubs disappearing versus, say, USL teams disappearing?
     
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  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it will be more like 300,000 people watching MLS excluding the one match in Canada and 100,000 watching USL. And some of them will be wearing European team jerseys as they cheer on their local team.
     
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  22. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well let's see, only one post 2014 expansion team has failed and that was down to circumstances beyond their control. I'm not counting MLS teams that have restructured.

    Some teams have reverted to the D3 status they had in 2016.

    Sunderland and Villa had 6 figure debts settled by their former owners, and received 60 million handouts from the Premier League upon relegation, just to pay their wages. Otherwise they'd probably be where Bolton is.
     
  23. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Oh man, I think we've gotten to the bottom of why we can't see eye to eye.
     
  24. DanGerman

    DanGerman Member+

    Aug 28, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That film lost me in the first 15 minutes! When you're trying to tell me Gothom is across the bay from Metropolis! I simply could not get over that BS.
     
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  25. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake

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