The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll grant you football and even baseball, but claiming nobody cares about basketball is a stretch. Its not on the level of soccer but "local USA sport" is not an accurate description.
     
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  2. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well there's the Koreans and Japanese of course. Nippon Professional Baseball has higher average attendances than Major League Baseball, La Liga, J-League and Serie A @ 29,300 over 858 games. As you'll know, the Baseball World Cup champions are the Netherlands.
     
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  3. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You really do not know/understand what unconscious & conscious bias are, huh?
     
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  4. I should have phrased that better:
    Nobody in the world cares about any of the big USA sports competitions in the way they care about soccer or even cricket.
    Percentage wise the number of people actively playing one of the american sports in a given country probably is lower than Americans playing soccer.
     
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  5. Basketball is played at a very good level in a few countries in Europe, Greece, Italy and Spain plus Israel. Outside Europe it's Japan iirc. That's not much at a quality level, but afaik the gap in quality to the USA isnot as big as with mls and the top Euro leagues. So in a way I agree with you on this sport.
     
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  6. I thought we were toppled.
     
  7. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I was actually surprised by American football's worldwide reach when I started looking into it. Growing up I always assumed that landscape was completely barren but the number of countries where the sport is represented on some level is much higher than I expected.
     
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  8. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Australia, Brazil, Argentina, France, Canada, Lithuania, Germany, Russia, and China say hello.....

    It is a shame that the best players in the world choose to play in the most watched league in the world instead of playing in Europe. Where they have Champions League and Pro/Rel.....well except for the biggest teams....

    Anyways, enough snark. Basketball, and the NBA in particular, happens to be incredibly popular throughout the world. Hell, in 1992 the Dream Team captivated the world and drew sell out crowds, and also huge crowds in public places where ever the team went.* . This was before youtube was even created, or the internet was even a widely distributed and affordable necessity.

    *well, all team members except for John Stockton, who surprisingly could walk all over Barcelona with his family anonymously.
     
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  9. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Depends what his ownership interest was/is.
     
  10. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    John Stockton could have walked all over pretty much any American city outside of SLC and maybe Spokane at the height of his career fairly anonymously. :D
     
  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok but Wikipedia tells me that baseball is the most popular sport in Japan. Their oldest club was formed in 1878.
     
  12. I say hello too, but when we're talking about a quality level of those leagues, but of course I can be wrong about it as it's outside my comfort zone, those are the leagues that are the closest in quality to the US league.
    It's quite remarkable we Dutch arenot one of the top leagues, while we have the tallest population. Iirc we have about 160,000 people over 2 meter.
     
  13. Japan was for years after the War basically occupied territory by the USA, so that's logical.
     
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  14. Was 1878 after or before "The Last Samurai"?
     
  15. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a genuine question, as I'm not entirely sure. How many of them were at the summit?

    Why does it have to be up the pyramid to worry about it?
    If the sentiment is not worrying about pro/rel until you've kicked a ball, then why worry about it at all?

    Yes, it is ... and I did just toss the two leagues out there as an example.
    (It was also to illustrate and bring to light some things that many arguing for or vehemently in favor of Pro/Rel simply ignore or don't know)

    NISA/USL though, COULD ... NISA's season set up would work as it is a fall/spring split. After their playoffs a promoted team would could go to the USL-C or USL-1 (I understand they are both D3). There's no reason that USL/NISA couldn't function like the FL/NL in England.

    NPSL/USL2 are potential bridge leagues or places where clubs that give it a go but just aren't able to be full on pro can land.

    BUT, this right here is where the USSF can be forced to action by the clubs. The job (part of it) they're SUPPOSED to be doing can directly address this. Force the federation into creating 4th tier standards (or MINIMUM pro standards). Rather than petition for a pie in the sky shit show, come together and petition for ACTUALITIES and things that are TRULY beneficial for the game.

    So, you're saying that if you ranked the players in the world by "quality" and then revealed their salaries ... there'd be no correlation?

    Uh yeah, no ....

    This is the other thing that Pro/Rel champions "forget" when retroactively spouting their love for the true and pure form of soccer. Even the plan that was along these lines called for EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY before ever thinking about pro/rel.

    Establish, survive, flesh out, grow, .... then tinker.

    David Beckham, Thierry Henry, Robbie Keane, Frank Lampard, Andrea Pirlo, Steven Gerrard, Carlos Vela, Bastion Schweinsteiger, Nico Lodeiro, Cristian Pavon, Zlatan, Albert Rusnak, Miguel Almiron, Josef Martinez, Romain Alessandrini, Sebastian Blanco, Vako, Diego Rossi, Kaku, Darwin Quintero, Alejandro Pozuelo, Sebastian Giovinco

    .... nope, not a one.

    ... right. Nobody cares.
    That's why NFL Europe avg'd 19K in attendance over the course of its history right? (which is more folks than those that come out and watch your Erevidisie btw) or why 28K watch football in Canada each game eh?
    That's why just under 30K folks watch each baseball game in Japan yeah?
    Is that why 8.5K watch EuroLeague basketball games?

    huh, if those are "nobody cares" numbers ....

    There's no substitute for time. No shit. I myself have stated that countless times.

    WTF are you talking about? Butts in seats at the stadiums, or also accounting for TV viewers? I ask because 69.6 MILLION people went to an MLB game in 2018 (just regular season)

    not even 6m TOTAL asses in the seats set the CL record last year (group stage onward)
    https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...966+Champions+League+attendance+record+broken

    You go on and add up the rest of those footie attendance numbers and let me know if it gets to 69.6 MILLION .... if it does, I'll start adding our other Major Sports one by one and we'll see ho that goes for you.[/quote]
     
  16. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #22766 Paul Berry, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
    Which war? It was mainly played in universities in the early part of the century but it become a big time pro sport in the 1930s.

    Meanwhile, back in the low countries:

    upload_2019-8-21_11-57-5.png
     
  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I suspect it took at least 15 years before he saw a return on paper.
     
  18. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Well, this feels a little like a loaded question - and since NPSL Pro never became a thing it's not entirely sure who was directly involved-, but:
    https://www.chattanoogafc.com/news/summit-joint-statement/

    So the clubs in attendance directly involved with Founders Cup (which we'll have to use as a proxy for NPSL Pro) were:
    • Chattanooga FC
    • Detroit City FC
    • Miami FC
    • Miami United FC
    • Oakland Roots (née Oakland Pro Soccer)
    I think it's worth throwing Ft. Worth Vaqueros into this group because, even though they weren't part of FC, Napa Valley 1839 was (still is with Members Cup) and they have the same ownership. Ft. Worth is obviously a lot closer than CA (and there are direct flights from DFW->CHA).

    And if you want to take this a little further, the delegates that are now involved with NISA are:
    • Atlanta SC (née Silverbacks)
    • Chattanooga FC
    • Detroit City FC
    • Miami FC
    • Oakland Roots
    • Philadelphia Fury
    Which, as a Venn diagram, overlaps considerably, but not completely.
    If the league will be introducing relegation in the future, you'll need to have buy-in for that from the owners from the start. If you're at the bottom of the pyramid, relegation isn't an issue.
    I don't really know what this means. My point was that worrying about some future with pro/rel is putting the cart before the horse when, until July, nobody even thought this league would ever actually successfully organize a single game.
    This is ignoring that USL is a franchise league with lots of restrictions on team movement and already has teams in half the cities NISA is in. This is not a viable option for a variety of reasons.

    I also don't think L2 and NPSL are particularly good candidates for what you're proposing, either. USL is certainly interested in raising some teams out of L2 into L1, but at their own pace. They also are perfectly happy to accept teams that have spent no time in L2. L2 also had the same restrictions of club movement that they other USL leagues have.

    Likewise, I can see if NPSL gets their full-season proposal off the ground, that being an incubator for teams to prepare themselves to enter NISA. The full season teams would have a clear way to differentiate themselves from the clubs that are really only interested in being development teams. Like L2 to L1, I can't really see this being a competition based pro/rel relationship, though. The transition from amateur to professional is just too big simply from a operational point of view: this would have to be voluntary pro/rel, not competitive.

    Also, I don't imagine that an NPSL "full season" would be particularly well suited for a sporting merit pro/rel. I think it's almost certain that the current Member's Cup is the model for what their full season will be: regular NPSL summer season + some kind of round robin tournament in the fall with interested participants.
     
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  19. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I think NISA<->USL would involve a franchise fee and a parachute payment.
     
  20. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Well, sure, but the question is whether his role in helping to establish MLS when he was president of the USSF has ultimately rewarded him financially.
     
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  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He took a huge gamble and saved the league on two occasions with his own money. Garber said that as of 2014 the league was still losing $100 million a year, which is why I said his gains were on paper i.e. the value of his shareholding.
     
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  22. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    You are illustrating the advantages the inception of MLS had/has when it is the person who at the time was president of the USSF that we are talking about. Didn't MLS also get some funding from profits made by WC '94?
     
  23. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I see you're engaging in your favorite form of exercise: moving the goalposts.
    I'm trying to figure out how recreational participation in a given sport is relevant in any way to this discussion.
     
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  24. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was genuine. I'd lost track of the who went so I wanted to see as not to just fly off the handle with discussion going forward.

    I don't think so on this though because NISA was officially founded the summer BEFORE the summit and was clearly being thought/planned before that.

    With the discussion point about having pro/rel from the get go, or founding a league/set up with it from day one (like both USL and NISA have given lip service too). That would insinuate the buy-in from owners you're referring to no?

    BUT, even if you're "at the bottom" like NISA is of the "recognized" USSF tiers that doesn't mean you can't institute a sub-floor in your set up that isn't USSF Tier sanctioned. There is literally nothing in the verbiage of the PLS or in anything about US Soccer that says you can't have clubs go up and down/in and out of a USSF sanctioned Tier to a league/tier that isn't so.

    Is this alluding to the alleged USL-MLS territory thing?

    You can still leave it up to the club if they qualify on "sporting merit"

    But it'd still be based on the "sporting merit" qualifier and then go to the 100 other variables that myself and others continuously point too. Would be kind of hard to beat a brow if your club qualifies for promotion by virtue of a good season but then turns around and says "yeah, that shit ain't happening" ....
     
  25. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Yeah, no worries.
    There is almost no connection between NISA now and NISA then outside of the name. The Peter Wilt led NISA was abandoned just after Chattanooga Summit when Jack Cummins died. There were no teams committed to it at the time.

    The present NISA ostensibly started in September of last year and Bob Watkins took it over and they started announcing ownership groups through the end of the year. However, of that group, the only team that actually existed as an tangible entity was the Philadelphia Fury. SD 1904FC has been around as an idea since NASL imploded, but they've never actually fielded an actual team.

    Then they went dark again. Outside of very sporadic announcements, there was absolutely no movement outside of getting sanctioned from USSF (which deserves credit). Then around Memorial Day, they shit canned Bob Watkins and restarted the process of being a league.

    That said, I seriously doubt that if NPSL Pro wasn't clearly facing an insurmountable obstacle, NISA would have ever played a match. Of the 8 teams playing in the fall "showcase" are 3 former Founders Cup teams and Atlanta is a slapdash union between the guy who committed to NISA and NPSL's Atlanta SC (who just came in last place in the NPSL Southeastern conference). You would have had a teams in Philadelphia, Charlotte, maybe Atlanta, Los Angeles and San Diego. Dollars to donuts, they would have postponed until spring.

    If NISA succeeds, it will absolutely be because the Founders Cup refugees found there way there, not because it was a viable concern on its own.

    No, this is referring to USL's franchise territorial rights:
    Roots would be in USL East Bay/Concord's territory
    SD 1904FC would be Landon Donovan's USL San Diego territory
    Cal United Strikers play in the same park as OCSC
    Stumptown Athletic play in the same park as Charlotte Independence
    Chattanooga FC is in Red Wolves' territory
    TBA Connecticut team (Norwich) is in Hartford Athletic's territory

    I'm not sure this comment has anything to do with what it was replying to. L2 teams (like all USL teams) have a contract that prevents them from moving to other leagues.

    I'm not sure why you're trying to force a tier underneath NISA. I can't express enough how the transition from amateur to fully professional operates on a wholly different schedule than "sporting merit". Most clubs are going to have a very narrow window make the leap if they get the chance. You can't use some 1 in 100 probability to win the league to hinge on completely changing your business model from part-time, seasonal, t-shirt company to full-time job as sports team.

    The business model and operations of Pittsburgh Riverhounds isn't remarkably different than the Greenville Triumph. Richmond probably changed almost nothing about their organization between last season and this one. However, the difference between the Forward Madison and Greenville FC or Mississippi Brilla or AFC Mobile is night and day.
     
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